Boston Debut Album "More Than A Feeling" Lead Tone

Sounds awesome, would also love that patch.

Would it have been possible to use the axe harmoniser to create the dual guitar parts?
 
very good. i agree with others, that a little more hair, more gain (perhaps) and more wet fx and you'd be spot on. i remember someone really nailing this tone on the gen1 units...can't remember who it was, but if they see this thread, hopefully they might share some tips...

edit: yes, it was "eljodon" -

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra...tons-more-than-feeling-band-cover-vocals.html

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra...ton-sound-first-2-album-hyperspace-pedal.html

and the patches: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra-std-preset-exchange/34408-boston-patch.html

if you load these up in the editor, you might be able to see what's going on

sim
 
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Dude! That tone is pretty spot on! Is there any way we can beg borrow or steal that patch?!?!

I've been trying to get a decent Boston tone, and I have failed and flailed miserably.

Great job! Sounds awesome!
 
nicolassal said:
Dude! That tone is pretty spot on! Is there any way we can beg borrow or steal that patch?!?!

I've been trying to get a decent Boston tone, and I have failed and flailed miserably.

Great job! Sounds awesome!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words. I'm now working on an improved version. I'll share something here that finally allowed me to get close to the original Boston lead tone (not the Rockman tone but the first album tone).

The "hair" or "buzz" that characterizes the tone is not derived from the amp model. I can crank up the gain and it doesn't help. I've been unable to find a model to date that will create the buzz or "hair" as I like to call it that creates the unique character of the Boston lead tone.

The "special sauce" in the distortion is derived from an outboard digital compressor that's native to Sonar. It's the Sonitus compressor that's built into Sonar, also available as a VST plugin. By setting the attack and release times to their minimums, it "shreds" the sound and produces a unique distortion that I just can't seem to get any other way. While eljodon's effort is noteworthy, I think my tone is considerably closer to the original, but it wasn't done entirely within the AXE-FX.

The attack and release of the compressor are so fast that they are shorter than the fundamental frequency of the guitar notes and as a result the release starts to increase the gain during the troughs of the waveform and the attack reduces the gain on the next peak, and in doing so this creates a "buzz" or the "hair" that gives it that special character. I tried the compressor in the AXE but the release is too slow on the fastest setting, so I had to loop the signal through Sonar and the Sonitus compressor (after the high gain AXE amp model with lots of distortion already present) to get the "hair" effect. Waves C1 also does almost the same thing on the fastest attack and release times but the Sonitus seemed to be slightly better at creating the effect.

I guess that would be something to add to my wish list: faster attack and release times on the AXE compressor so it can be "abused" to distort the tone beyond what the amp model does. I think it might just need a faster release as the attack seems to be very fast. After the Sonitus compressor I put the signal through an IR (custom) and a brick wall LPF in the AXE. Everything is AXE but the compressor distortion. I used a Soldano model but other models I tried worked almost as well, but none would put the "hair" on the tone like the compressor would.

I seem to recall reading an article once where Tom Scholz said he used some "strange equipment" to create the lead tones on the first album, and I think he mentioned one of those pieces of equipment was half of a single ended noise reduction module (compressor/expander) that he modified. Is it possible that he used the compressor section of a "compander" with the release time increased by changing the time constant of the circuit? It's anybody's guess, but I think that's what gave me the idea to try to use a compressor to get that distortion sound and it seems to work!

I still have a couple of ideas on how I might be able to do this entirely within the AXE-FX itself by creating a compressor using modifiers, but I need time to play around with it some more.

One other tip, I used some very high Q notches between 1 and 2kHz that seemed to bring it to life - that's what I meant by "heavily phase notched". Without them it sounded too direct. A better IR would probably eliminate that need.

If anybody has an idea on how to "create" a compressor (I have one but have yet to try it) within the AXE-FX other than the standard compressor block I'd love to hear them.

Thanks. :D
 
that sounds pretty damn nice! I know I'd like to play around with your patch if you'd be so kind.
 
New Improved Version Upcoming

I just imported the track from the original CD into my work station - WOW - my EQ is way off, it's way too dry, and my vibrato and bends leave much to be desired. I'll have a brand new clip to post either tonight or in a few days - it depends on how well behaved my son is tonight. If you like the first one you'll love Boston Lead V2.0.

I want to work more on this and get it right before I share the patch. I think anyone who cares about this sound and this thread will be amazed at the EQ of the lead tracks when they're soloed. It's amazing to me how the ear is fooled by the mix. I had to thin out the guitars even more than I had already to make it closer to the album. When I post, I'll post both the original and my copy one right after the other for comparison, and then the backing with no lead that I used for the overdubs. I don't know if I should post the solo leads with no backing. This isn't a lead patch that sounds good solo, but it sounds good in the mix.

Back to work!
 
Boston Lead V2.0

Here's the best I could pull off without losing so much sleep that I wouldn't make it in to work tomorrow:

http://www.rockrollband.com/MTAF3.mp3

I improved a couple of bad vibratos, re-EQed the entire mix, applied some reverb, and added a little more "hair" to the guitars. I did my best to match the EQ of the album. No time to post the backing track or original album cut tonight. My ears are also fried at this point. Perhaps I should have waited to review with fresh ears tomorrow but what the heck.

Thank you and good night.
 
Very, very nice tone. I remember seeing these guys 100 years ago in Santa Barbara at the Arlington Theater before I even knew who they were. Blew me back on my heels. They pulled it off live.
 
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MisterE said:
Sounds great!!!!
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Thanks!

Since I can't edit my first post and didn't want people to have to dig for the new version, I replaced the old version in the initial post with the newer version. So they are now the same to avoid any confusion.

Thanks again for the kind words. I really put a lot of effort into that tone, and I think I can do it all in the AXE-FX II, and when I do I'll post the patch for those who want it.

UPDATE: I WAS able to edit my first post - duh!
 
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I don't know if you already have researched Tom Scholz's method of overdriving the amp, but it is fairly interesting.

"His Recording Techniques, using Marshall Super Lead 100 Watt Amplifiers

Stock Marshall amps were used to record the earlier Boston records, along with his '68 Gibson Les Paul Deluxe, known as Mighty Mouse. It had in it, a Dimarzio Super Distortion Humbucking pickup, screwed down in a fixed position.

Using information provided from other musician discussion boards, Tom Scholz, used 70's Marshall Super Lead 100 watt amps, possibly a 1972 model, used as a preamp. This was achieved using a load box, to bring the signal down to line level and into a half engaged wah, used as a tone filter and other eq's, etc and into the console, direct. Using the same attenuator, he miked a standard Marshall cab, from a few feet away with an SM57 mic. This was run into a separate channel on the console and recorder. Using painstaking amounts of time and tape, to record, the sound was processed using an Eventide-910 and rack mount EQ's and other effects. Tom has said in interviews, that he will do anything in the studio to get a particular sound or groove!

Tom designed his own prototype load box, using a heat sink from an old theatrical light. After further design enhancements, it became the power soak. It received the nick name, "The Boston Strangler". It's been said, he used the blue MXR 6-Band EQ in front of the Marshall.... Only Tom could tell us this, if it is true or not, as he has been recording alone for the past 35 years.

His recordings were done at relatively low volume as compared to other musicians, using Marshall's, at the time."

In other words, he used an entire amp as a preamp, loading the power section as well and then reducing that to line level into a filter (wah) and then into a power-amp to a cabinet. I've tried to do stuff like this on the Axe, but mine don't sound anywhere nearly as good as yours do.

Good work, and hopefully this helps. By the way, Tom Scholz also used chorus quite a bit.

P.S. I want your patch!!! LOL!
 
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nicolassal said:
I don't know if you already have researched Tom Scholz's method of overdriving the amp, but it is fairly interesting.

"His Recording Techniques, using Marshall Super Lead 100 Watt Amplifiers

Stock Marshall amps were used to record the earlier Boston records, along with his '68 Gibson Les Paul Deluxe, known as Mighty Mouse. It had in it, a Dimarzio Super Distortion Humbucking pickup, screwed down in a fixed position.

Using information provided from other musician discussion boards, Tom Scholz, used 70's Marshall Super Lead 100 watt amps, possibly a 1972 model, used as a preamp. This was achieved using a load box, to bring the signal down to line level and into a half engaged wah, used as a tone filter and other eq's, etc and into the console, direct. Using the same attenuator, he miked a standard Marshall cab, from a few feet away with an SM57 mic. This was run into a separate channel on the console and recorder. Using painstaking amounts of time and tape, to record, the sound was processed using an Eventide-910 and rack mount EQ's and other effects. Tom has said in interviews, that he will do anything in the studio to get a particular sound or groove!

Tom designed his own prototype load box, using a heat sink from an old theatrical light. After further design enhancements, it became the power soak. It received the nick name, "The Boston Strangler". It's been said, he used the blue MXR 6-Band EQ in front of the Marshall.... Only Tom could tell us this, if it is true or not, as he has been recording alone for the past 35 years.

His recordings were done at relatively low volume as compared to other musicians, using Marshall's, at the time."

In other words, he used an entire amp as a preamp, loading the power section as well and then reducing that to line level into a filter (wah) and then into a power-amp to a cabinet. I've tried to do stuff like this on the Axe, but mine don't sound anywhere nearly as good as yours do.

Good work, and hopefully this helps. By the way, Tom Scholz also used chorus quite a bit.

P.S. I want your patch!!! LOL!
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Thanks for the kind words and especially for all that info. I am aware of much of it but not all of it. I don't think we'll ever know (and Scholz may not even remember precisely) exactly how those sounds were obtained. I knew he used a wah and a power amp load. I actually purchased a Power Soak soon after they came out, must have been the late 70's or early 80's! It was a matrix of power resistors with a rotary switch to dial in the amount of attenuation so you could overdrive your power amp and like you say, play and record at low volume while distorting your power amp. If I'm not mistaken that was SR&D's first product. At the time I had a Fender Twin and it didn't quite give me the effect I expected (I was in high school at the time, just a kid) so I sold it.

I'm certain he used pre-distortion EQ and the MXR is probably correct. I have pre-distortion EQ on the patch I came up with basically reducing the bass and treble to put more emphasis on the fundamental.

One very important thing he also did was slam analog tape. He obtained significant amounts of distortion that way. How much is amp distortion and how much is tape being saturated again is anybody's guess, but it was a big part of his sound according to Scholz. I seem to recall he used a particular type of Ampex tape, and when he discovered they were going to stop producing it he stocked up. I also still have a vague recollection of an interview in the late 70's where he talked about using part of a single ended noise reduction unit for an analog tape deck (compander) to change the sound. Whether that's true or my imagination/faulty memory, it was my inspiration for attempting to use a compressor to create distortion.

The chorus units produced by SR&D used a triangle LFO on one channel to obtain a fixed amount of detune between the left and right channels, one channel remaining unchanged and the other having a pitch shift applied alternately above and below the dry channel, and they were analog "bucket brigade" devices. It was actually quite a simple design, but it works extremely well. That's the only type of chorus I care for, there is no change in the perceived position in the stereo image compared with other types of choruses and the amount of effect remains constant - great for double tracking picking and rhythm guitars, and leads as well.

Then there's the "Hyperspace Pedal" made from an old EchoPlex which I won't even go into, but the new tape delay module in the AXE II may allow replication of that, or if not, a similar effect. Can't wait to fiddle around with that!

Once I get rid of the outboard compressor and everything is internal to the AXE-FX II I will post my patch.

Was "Mighty Mouse" his gold top or a different guitar? I know that gold top Les Paul was ubiquitous at Boston concerts and in all the photos I've seen.

Thanks again for the info!
 
Is there an Axe II preset? It looks like this was made on Ultra? I couldn't get the patch to work on my II. Somebody please post for II. Thanks.
 
maharzan said:
Is there an Axe II preset? It looks like this was made on Ultra? I couldn't get the patch to work on my II. Somebody please post for II. Thanks.
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There's no patch yet, the sound involves an outboard processor that most people don't have. A previous version was initially developed on an Ultra but now it's running on an AXE II that I don't own but am borrowing in an equipment swap whenever I get the chance. Unfortunately I may not have access to the unit for a few days so I'm "stuck" right now, still waiting for my name to come up on the list. If I can get more time with the AXE II, as soon as I eliminate the outboard processor and have a patch that will give the same sound right out of the box I will post it. I don't know how long that will take, but thanks for the interest.
 
Search4Tone said:
There's no patch yet, the sound involves an outboard processor that most people don't have. A previous version was initially developed on an Ultra but now it's running on an AXE II that I don't own but am borrowing in an equipment swap whenever I get the chance. Unfortunately I may not have access to the unit for a few days so I'm "stuck" right now, still waiting for my name to come up on the list. If I can get more time with the AXE II, as soon as I eliminate the outboard processor and have a patch that will give the same sound right out of the box I will post it. I don't know how long that will take, but thanks for the interest.
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I aint got time to bleed! ( Jesse Ventura ) Predator! LOL
Cant wait for the patch!
 
Soon

To the PMs - if I sent the patch without the VST compressor in the external loop it would sound like the SLO 100 model and you would be very disappointed.

The good news (for anybody who thinks the patch sounds like original Boston and wants it): I think I figured out how to do it completely within the AXE-FX II with no outboard processing and I'm working on it. It will require a custom IR which I will provide and post in addition to the patch. I'm very close, just not quite where I had it yet, but I'm hoping I can make it even closer than the sample that's posted. I'd say I'm 80% of the way there. This is the tone BTW that got me interested in rock music (heavy metal it was called at the time it came out :shock). It was the first album I'd ever heard that I thought actually had distorted guitars with a pleasing tone, without the "raunchiness" I didn't care for. I was 13 when Boston's first album completely redirected my musical tastes.
 
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