Best way to approach this?

vinnyburns

vinnyburns

Experienced
I want to tone match my rhythm guitar setup in the Axe.
For rhythm guitars, I use.... Guitar into Axess BS-2 to split the signal to a Marshall 50w non master JMP (model 1987) through an old Marshall 1960 with Celestion Blackbacks and a JMP 100w master volume (model 2203) into an old JCM 800 with stock speakers.
Each cab is mic'ed with an SM57 and an AKG 451 into mic pre (Focusrite ISA828) and all of this is mic balanced and recorded to one track in Logic.
For these rhythm guitars, I record 3 tracks. A left and Right and also a Centre track.
Centre track is the same as the other two except I put the AKG 451's out of phase.

Is it best to
A: Easy way :) Use just one amp model in the Axe (50w non master Marshall) and use the reference I have on multitrack from the L channel for the Tonematch. Save preset. Repeat for the out of phase Centre track and save to a different preset. Pros. Only one amp used so can be a full resolution model within the Axe. Cons. Don't think the one amp would have the same harmonic content. Can't replicate Cliff's Boogie :) to cover all frequencies as it's a prerecorded track from Logic.

B: Both amps playing in my live room. Use a preset with two amp models in the Axe. Pros. Can then cover all frequencies by playing Cliff's Boogie. Cons. Lose resolution in the Axe by using two amps in the preset.

C: Same two amp models in the Axe and use the reference multitrack for the tone match. Pros. Very easy to do (I think?) Cons. Lose resolution by using two amp models. Cant cover all frequencies by playing Cliff's Boogie.

Hmmm. No one said this was going to be easy but would be great to just be able to pull up two presets (one of the L&R and the other preset for the out of phase Centre) to record rhythm guitars rather than having to mess about with mic's and preamps.
Anyone done this yet?
 
4 accuracy tonematches (one for each mic.) with sinesweep (from the synth-Block):

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FX Block: external Rig chain = Amp input to Mic Pre output
Mixer Block: Stereo = Real Amp left; Axe-Fx Amp right - Mono = Summing both chains
Filter Block in the bginning: Mute/Activate Guitar signal
Filter Block at the end: 20db DIM (because sine sweeps are LOUD!)

SCENE1: guitar -> Axe-Fx Rig
SCENE2: guitar -> real Amp Rig
SCENE3: Realtime Dual FFT Tonematch using sine sweep. Start Ref. and Local with Up-button, wait till the curves are totally frozen (Peak Hold), Enter = Match

AB-check using SCENE1 & 2, re-adjust Amp-Block (Gain?!) if needed, re-match with SCENE3, if needed.

Save Tonematch as Cab-IR

Redo the process 4 times for every Amp / Cab / Mic.

Preset HERE


Further informations about this tonematch approach in the PDF here:





Preset of your actual Two Amps Two Cabinets Two Mics Setup:

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Preset HERE


Load the 4 Tonematch Cab-IRs in the User Slots (here: 50 - 53). Adjust panning and/or delays for left/right/out of phase.

Copy the Amp settings used when matching to the Amp Blocks in this preset.

Using the FX Block lets you record both Amps and 4 Mics on seperatelxy tracks in your DAW (as the real deal).
 
Thanks. Thing is, when I am tracking, all 4 mic's get recorded onto just one track in Logic. I track these rhythm parts 3 times so end up with just a L&R track and a Centre track where the Akg 451's are out of phase (this track gets dropped by 3db relative to the L&R tracks. So if the L&R are at -14 on the faders in Logic, the Centre out of phase track will be -17 on the logic fader.
I only want to end up with what I have with the real amps and that is all 4 mic's summed to 1 track per take. Otherwise, I end up with 12 tracks just for one rhythm part.
How much resolution does an amp model lose when you switch to two in a preset?
Thanks for your reply :)
 
Pan all 4 Cabinets to Center -> One track for all. adjust cab-Block delay time for out of phase for the third track. The resolution lost in "Two Amps Mode" is (to me) inaudible. If at all you loose anything it`s because of the TMA resolution of 1024Samples.
 
Morphosis said:
Pan all 4 Cabinets to Center -> One track for all. adjust cab-Block delay time for out of phase for the third track. The resolution lost in "Two Amps Mode" is (to me) inaudible. If at all you loose anything it`s because of the TMA resolution of 1024Samples.
Click to expand...

Thank you for all this. Going to have a go at this. Although, playing my existing rhythm tracks for normal and out of phase into to the tone match block has come astonishingly close. Need to do a little more recording with it as the parts I recorded were a semitone apart from the masters but I will rerecord tonight in the same key and post the two files up to see how close they are.
What (if any) are the long term implications for running loud swept sine waves through a 1978 50w vintage non master Marshall with all tone controls up and the vol on 8? Same for my 100w JMP 2203. That is set with master volume on 4. Will this take the speakers or amp out? Dare not even think about what it might do to my 68 smallpox plexi :)
All the very best.
Vinny.
 
vinnyburns said:
Thank you for all this. Going to have a go at this. Although, playing my existing rhythm tracks for normal and out of phase into to the tone match block has come astonishingly close. Need to do a little more recording with it as the parts I recorded were a semitone apart from the masters but I will rerecord tonight in the same key and post the two files up to see how close they are.
What (if any) are the long term implications for running loud swept sine waves through a 1978 50w vintage non master Marshall with all tone controls up and the vol on 8? Same for my 100w JMP 2203. That is set with master volume on 4. Will this take the speakers or amp out? Dare not even think about what it might do to my 68 smallpox plexi :)
All the very best.
Vinny.
Click to expand...

Start with Synth Output-level -80db and raise the Output till it match guitar-volume. -20db - -15db is realisitic to match "guitar-output". My Live tonematch template let you switch between sine and guitar (Scene2 + 3). Perhaps measure RMS of the miced cabinet in your DAW.
 
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