Best Parameters to Tighten sound?

RackAddict

Previous handle "Djenter"
So I'm a satisfied user in such that this rack models tube amps perfectly. I also love the effects. The reverbs and delays alone are worth the price of this afx3 rack unit. The problem is I've found myself getting away from tube amps in general to solid state because they are so much tighter to me. And it looks like my and many other's wishes to have solid state amps modeled in this is just a pipe dream. It's just not happening.

Lately I have found myself playing some of my solid state preamps into the axe fx 3 as they seem to be the amps that feel right for the type of rhythm and soloing and tone I'm into these days. But definetly not ideal for the more involved switching rig.

Right now tube amps don't do it for one of my projects whether real or modeled. It feels like some thing lags a bit and doesn't have the articulation of SS. I find tube amps just have too much thick grain all over the sound and while some of my music can certainly record with it and use it, I still feel the need for SS at the core of the main tone of a different project.

With that being said, can I please have anyone advise me on the best ways to tighten up existing amps other than the most obvious ways like reducing sag and recovery time or shaping eq before gain? And also which are the most solid state-ish amps. So I've been able to get one or two models to sound a bit more solid state-ish with parameter editing. But not quite.

With the models like the Friedman's and Splawns, mesas and marshalls it's just not possible to get it as quick and articulate as I need as there's too much going on with the sag and whatever the amps are doing to cascade all that gain stage stuff through tubes and feeding back through the sections and whatever. The Diezels are absolutely out of the question. I mean, that guy wants his gain reaching over the former wall then back again while I'm already out of the continent.

The Peaveys are a bit edgy for the type of music I'm playing which is this cosmic death metal and black-ish astral metal with some distant stuff going on too that doesn't need to be that up front or massively grainy gain in rhythm tone. As for lead tone, I'm influenced by Mithras and a few others that to no surprise live by solid state amps. I'm just blown away by their On Strange Loops album still to this day. I also happened to invest some serious amounts of money to know exactly how all the sounds on that album are produced including all the lead tones and signal chains. I even know the exact speaker year, country and cone are and what is done to the Pickups and how the effects are run.
I have some pretty good replication of some of it in the afx3 (as a reference) but there is something fundamental here missing that is the final link.

Anyways I am just about ready to record and will record either way with what I have either with my fractal or other racks into the fractal but thought this was necessary to share before I do. The FAS models, while just as good as the other models, seem to have the same sort of things going on. (A natural thing in tube amps. But to some of us players it just throws us off after a while when we improve our playing and need faster responding more articulate amps under which only solid state seems to fall. But is there some way to adjust these deep parameters so that they are less prone to feeling like they lag? Because I may have heard pretty instant tube amps in the past with some instantly saturating solid state feel to them.
 
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By lag, are you referring to pick attack or something else?
Nah, just need more intant amp response.
For some people this stuff has to be demonstrated as more apparent on palm mutes and hammer and pulloffs to sort of sound more articulate and shreds too so there is a bit less of the smear of the tube type of overdrive gains. Tremolo picking articulation too on rhythm the same on chords, even for semi palm mutes not fully palm-muted. But also straight tremolo picking on chords.
I guess to some this may seem like one is splitting hairs. To others it's more like splitting obvious loaves of bread. Everyone is different.
 
Nah, just need more intant amp response.
For some people this stuff has to be demonstrated as more apparent on palm mutes and hammer and pulloffs to sort of sound more articulate and shreds too so there is a bit less of the smear of the tube type of overdrive gains. Tremolo picking articulation too on rhythm the same on chords, even for semi palm mutes not fully palm-muted. But also straight tremolo picking on chords.
I guess to some this may seem like one is splitting hairs. To others it's more like splitting obvious loaves of bread. Everyone is different.
Can you post a couple of samples demonstrating the difference you're referring to; one featuring the Axe-Fx and the other a solid-state amp?
 
The lower you turn the master volume the more you get it to sound like a pure preamp. That means you need to go lower than the usual range. You need to turn up the volume to compensate.
 
Turn off the power amp modeling.
Never personally done this but definitely something worth trying. Most of the "sag" in tube amps is coming from the power section compared to solid states.

For example look at the Randall V2/T2 series. Mega tight amps with tube preamp (as well as solid state too) and a solid state power section. I played a T2 at guitar center when I was like 19, amp did not need a boost/tube screamer for a tight sound.

I was playing the JMP1 model yesterday, that's an amp that's not exactly fully tube as far as I know, and it sounds like it. Flatter sound, more sterile and tight as heck.

I'd recommend trying a bunch of IR's too. Thats almost always the variable that gets you closer to a tone you have in your head than changing amp models. Like if you play the 6505 model and it has too much razor for you changing IR's should help massively with that.
 
One of the things you can do is look at previous solid state users and see what did they switch to after not using them anymore.

Dying fetus (ampeg vh140c originally) switched to ENGL savage 120 then EVH 5150.

Suffocation (ampeg vh140c) pretty much the same deal, engl and peavys..

Honestly though there are lot of amp models that I can make sound mega tight.

Savage model, super mega tight, mesa triaxis red, super mega tight, etc.

I totally understand solid state nostalgia, it's like a thing of history at this point. It doesn't feel nice seeing the amps of the 90's just go into the bowels of history. But.... There is a reason virtually every band that used to use those solid state heads eventually switch to something else.

There are certain randall amps that are really tight sounding when you plug straight in, RH300, V2/T2 series, but the RG100? That is really really not the tightest amp. It didn't have much gain either. The tight AF sounds you hear of those amps are the product of the insane amount of boosting and EQ pre the amp. Exciters, parametric EQ, graphic EQ etc. Ampeg VH140c, awesome as hell amps, but again. Plug straight in I don't think it's the tightest thing at all. The amps basically sound like a 5150 with that kind of muffled high end. Closest you can get to that kinda sound is 5150 model with an impulse response like a celestion G12K85/100. Or just something not is not super high focused (aka V30) Lots of different ones I have tried that work great for this. Just listen to Destroy the opposition, and tell me that is a super tight guitar tone. It realllllly isn't. The only reason it doesn't sound completely muddy is the bass drums double tracking etc.

Oh and yes try messing with the master volume. It's put a lot higher on default than most people would have their amps playing them at home for metal tones.

I think I understand what you mean about tube amps having like more going on in the frequency range, what you said about like the saturation. I'm pretty sure most of this is the poweramp and the amount of gain you are using, why cliff suggested to turn off power amp modeling. Try lower master volume, (and higher output level to compensate) and lower gain if you do not like what you get with no poweramp modeling at all. The higher your master volume the more sag and bloom you get.
 
Also, as always, pull low end before distortion, maybe add some back in later, maybe. Another tightness/impact option is turning negative feedback up.
 
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Here are some of the parameters to tighten and decongest the amps that I have used. There are more ways but I've found these very effective.

Lower the MV
Turn on the CUT switch
Reduce Depth
Reduce amp gain and use input boost to compensate

Choose a harder preamp tube, ie 12AX7 instead of ECC83
Increase low cut
Lower preamp bias excursion

Increase power amp negative feedback
Lower transformer drive
Lower transformer match
Lower power tube grid bias
Lower Phase Inverter bias excursion
Choose a harder power tube (I've found that the power tube selection in V19 is very noticeable and useful)
Lower power tube bias excursion
Lower cathode follower compression
Lower power tube excursion recovery time

Lower power supply sag

Reduce speaker impedance bass peak
Increase speaker impedance bass Q

Use positive value on the "definition" (tilt) filter on the amp block eq page.
Reduce bass post eq on amp block page. Note setting the filter location to pre PA is extremely effective.

My main tool for controlling the amp low end is by placing a para eq block in front of the amp block. I can get 95% of what I need this way without messing with the amp block advanced parameters.
 
Use fx metal pedal sim in a clean amp in the axe.
for early death metal and things like that you put a dod death metal /mt2 in whatever clean and that’s it, you got your solid state dist .

Edit : I ve listened to the band you mention , they are mids ok I believe you wanted a “deicide” type of sound . But I m sure that you can nail it with the mt2 in the axe with a mid boost and a clean amp
 
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Use fx metal pedal sim in a clean amp in the axe.
for early death metal and things like that you put a dod death metal /mt2 in whatever clean and that’s it, you got your solid state dist .

Edit : I ve listened to the band you mention , they are mids ok I believe you wanted a “deicide” type of sound . But I m sure that you can nail it with the mt2 in the axe with a mid boost and a clean amp

Deicide is all tube. Always has been. I have an amazing once Upon the cross preset in my unit. I use one of the JVMs for that. It'svery proper and exact like that album which was also similar to that Suffocation Pierced from Within type gain and early Grip Inc. Or Early Fear factory sound too with those types of amps. Am very ecstatic about them.

On the other suggestions. Much appreciated.

On the EQ before distortion stuff for sure, I already do that. In fact I'm the one who requested the 30 band graphic EQ like Trey Azagthoth uses before the rats which go into the JCM900 4100 he uses (which is a half solid state half tube hybrid amp, which despite his sludgy sound settings, is very fast to that sludge and it's very fast out of it too.

On a metal distortion pedal model before a clean preamp, will definetly try that. I am surprised I didn't. But I have tried staging their gain and output levels with some of the other amps with some decent results.
Would certainly be nice to be able to do with an SS or one of these amps models shaped to be as solid state as possible. Seems like archeon is the closest so far.
 
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For general purpose tightening: a useful tool in the box is to use the multiband compressor and compress just the low end (below say 200hz - YMMV depending on genre and how much bass/low mids you're conditioning, string gauges, tuning etc.): medium attack, quick release are the usual choices, ratio and threshold to taste. Most effective before the amp, can also be a treatment between amp & cab. How tight or loose, punchy or round - you decide. Importantly; midrange distortions and dynamics can develop without being compromised by undisciplined low end energy.
 
I did not know that, thanks for clarifying.
Cliff has decided what power amp model to pair with each preamp.

A good place to hear it in effect is to take the CAE3+ Clean model and crank up the Master Volume. You'll definitely hear the power amp distortion.

I think the power section of choice is mentioned for all the preamp models in yek's Amp Guide.
 
Peavy 6505 in the axe if I remember (I ll check tomorrow if it’s this one)


nice runs. I will mess around more with that 6505. seems decently controlled.

Been checking out some UMA lately. Progenie Terrestre Pura album.

also check out Darkspace. Release III most prominently. Big influence. a statement back to the drummers that we dont need to get carpet bombed with battery for the vibe of something to work.

At the end of the day its more about being able to make something real. they are proof that if you can come up with something serious, all you really need is any amp, a few drums, and a mic and a reverb.

 
I find turning the preamp sag off on certain models (more hi gain models) tightens up the sound - to my ears it gives a dryness to the sound.
 
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