Bar Band Mixer / PA Suggestions

PSea

Experienced
Morning! Looking for some guidance on gigging gear. Our use case:

-sm/med sized bars, with typically small 'stages'
-band runs the board fr the stage (no 3rd party)
-estimating 14 xlr inputs to be safe (1 for lead vocal, 4 for guitars-both stereo rig capable, 1 for bass, 1 for keyboard, 4 for drum kit, 3 for background vocals)
-prefer a smaller/lighter rig if possible
-leaning towards a digital console
-prefer 48v setting for ev xlr (as opposed to one on/off for all inputs)

some questions:

1. powered PA vs powered speakers. is there a better choice for our use case?
2. what type of RMS power should i look for in speakers?
3. is it unreasonable to assume we dont need a subwoofer given theyre smaller, indoor venues? perhaps rent one for an outdoor gig?
4. being familiar with the EV PXM-12MP, would they work well for mains given venue sizes or would they be challenged? love their weight, sound and features.
5. any console recommendations or things i should avoid?
6. if not the EV's what would you consider?

THANKS in advance. Mod's if this is the wrong board, just let me know or move it to where this would be most suitable!
 
I like my QSC Touchmix 30 for the anti feedback and the presets, it saves me a lot of time and I feel pretty confident running my band’s sound from the stage
 
1. powered PA vs powered speakers. is there a better choice for our use case?

I'd get powered speakers. They're more common now and it isolates failures better. If one speaker dies you can limp along with the others. It also spreads the weight around.

2. what type of RMS power should i look for in speakers?
Depends entirely on your budget and the size of the rooms you play. Hard to give a generic answer here IMHO.

3. is it unreasonable to assume we dont need a subwoofer given theyre smaller, indoor venues? perhaps rent one for an outdoor gig?
You probably don't need a sub and you definitely don't need to start with a sub. You can always add a sub later.

4. being familiar with the EV PXM-12MP, would they work well for mains given venue sizes or would they be challenged? love their weight, sound and features.
I've used the non-wedge equivalent of these EVs for years the band's mains and they're awesome. The non-wedge version doesn't use a coaxial tweeter/woofer setup. These: https://products.electrovoice.com/na/en/elx112p/

5. any console recommendations or things i should avoid?
XR18

There's a good discussion over here: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/who-has-and-uses-a-midas-mr18-live-and-in-studio.195727/

6. if not the EV's what would you consider?
I love my EVs so those are my recommendation. QSCs are also very popular. Rent a bunch and try 'em out?
 
I play guitar and am by no means an expert on PA gear but......

We started with the Behringer X16 which takes up 4-6 rack spaces and is run from a tablet. It took a good weekend to get everything up and running but it worked well.
Pros:
Small footprint
You can walk out with the tablet and make adjustments as needed
You can have individual monitor mixes run from your individual phones (6 aux outs)
Internal effects and EQ's so really no outboard equipment needed

Cons:
Only 16 channels
If you run stereo monitors you're limited to 3 stereo monitor sends (or 6 mono sends)
You need an external router which isn't a big deal

We switched after a year to the X-32 and S-16 system which gave us 16 more channels and 6 more aux outputs so we can run 6 stereo monitor sends. We love the Behringer system, it has it's challenges but we have a full time FOH guy that is pretty on top of it to make the shows flow.
We run Powered 18" subs (up to 8) and powered tops (up to 6) so we can add or subtract as needed for each show. Most small clubs can be done with 2 subs and 2 tops. We typically use the Peavey RBN system for indoor stuff and add the JBL subs and tops for outdoor or bigger venues as needed. Powered speakers IMO are much easier to set up, takes up less space, and have less wires running across the floor.
 
I use my powered CLRs as PA speakers with an EV ZAX1 sub. Works great.

As opposed to the OP's preference, I switched back to an analog mixer: Yamaha MG16XU. I like it a lot. Never got used to digital mixing.
One of the reasons I prefer it to analog alternatives from Soundcraft, Allen&Heath etc., is that it has a (one-knob) compressor on each channel. Effects are digital.

There's also a MG20XU with more XLR/line channels.

4x AUX for monitoring which suits my band of 4. We use a couple of floor wedges or Behringer B1205D's.
 
Behringer or Midas XR/MR18 are great. You can have a dedicate ipad or android to control them and use a very customizable app like mixing station. I've run those mixers from stage for years, the advantage over analog is it doesn't accidentally get bumped and stuff is massively changed, and you can store scenes and recall them. I store the EQ separately from the rest of the mix for every venue we play, that means we plug in, I recall the last EQ and we are ready to go with a quick sound check and sometimes minor EQ adjustments. Our soundchecks typically take 90-120 seconds. We do have IEMs, an ekit and all fractals though so drums or live amps/monitors would change that some.

Always powered speakers these days, just for the ability to resell and ease of setup/transport. I recently tried to sell a really nice bar sized passive PA because I had replaced with powered and it was incredibly hard to sell, nobody wants passive stuff these days (guitar center won't even take it on trade in).

I'd highly recommend a sub, especially if the band has a sound that needs bottom end. Even a single powered sub to emphasize the kick and bass is going to be super helpful.

Mains - highly recommend the QSC or JBL Constant Curvature boxes, work well in single box per side deployments but allow you to expand the system easily (via available rental or buying more) if you start going to bigger venues or want more coverage.

HTH

Kevin
 
I've been eyeing the Electro-Voice Evolve 50 column speakers recently. Anyone have experience with this type of PA? How it compares to the regular EV 12in powered speakers.
Btw, I've got a Soundcraft ui24 mixer and love it. Plenty of channels. My drummer wants his toms mic'd so he takes like 8 channels alone lol.
 
I'd get powered speakers. They're more common now and it isolates failures better. If one speaker dies you can limp along with the others. It also spreads the weight around.


Depends entirely on your budget and the size of the rooms you play. Hard to give a generic answer here IMHO.


You probably don't need a sub and you definitely don't need to start with a sub. You can always add a sub later.


I've used the non-wedge equivalent of these EVs for years the band's mains and they're awesome. The non-wedge version doesn't use a coaxial tweeter/woofer setup. These: https://products.electrovoice.com/na/en/elx112p/


XR18

There's a good discussion over here: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/who-has-and-uses-a-midas-mr18-live-and-in-studio.195727/


I love my EVs so those are my recommendation. QSCs are also very popular. Rent a bunch and try 'em out?
much thanks!
 
guys, THANK YOU for all the input! gives me quite a few options to consider. was hoping powered speakers were a good solution. i had the same thought about minimizing failure points via powered speakers. time to do some shopping!
 
XR18 and powered mains. I'd get the EVs is I were doing it all over again just due to availability, but have been very satisfied with my TurboSound setup.
 
Do you need subs? No. But you might find that you want one or two, unless your volume is low enough that the bass and kick don't need reinforcement. If you're running bass and kick through FOH, I think you'll miss the power and drive that you associate with those instruments.
 
I've been eyeing the Electro-Voice Evolve 50 column speakers recently. Anyone have experience with this type of PA? How it compares to the regular EV 12in powered speakers.
Btw, I've got a Soundcraft ui24 mixer and love it. Plenty of channels. My drummer wants his toms mic'd so he takes like 8 channels alone lol.
These things are pretty amazing. We are always getting compliments from folks wondering how in the world these can sound so loud and clear, yet appear so small. It's a nice mini line-array. In our band, we have three of them. You don't have to use all 3, but it allows you to fill in various gaps at venues. This includes running a set inside, and potentially one out the door, etc. We do use a sub with them EKX-15SP. We have even stacked one of these much further out into the audience since it has its own delay and you don't need to run a delayed line from the mixer.

We are all A&H Qu-Pac w/IEM.
 
i prefer digital mixers because i can save and reload the settings exactly when i play different gigs throughout the week. also there is way more control over EQ per output and many nice things per input (comp, gate, eq, etc). that said, you have to understand that stuff to make use of it, but doesn't hurt to have and learn as you go.

as long as you have an ipad or two and can keep them charged and are ok using them, digital is nice to use. you'll need a wireless router as well.

i've used the x32, xr12 or xr18, touchmix 16, yamaha tf rack and yamaha dm3s over the past few years.

i wrote a lot below, sorry, but i've been researching and trying out mixers for years.

if i had to choose, get the midas air 18. best value for the money a TON of features. better mic pres and the XLRs actually lock on the midas vs the behringer version. just have an ipad dedicated as a hardwire, like i mention below.

lots of great options out there, but the details can make or break some setups.

--
touchmix 16 is great because it's so small, but a problem creeping up on them these days is they overheat because they're so small, and capacitors at output stages mushroom and start to fail. my tm16 has the mauin left channel about 6 dB less signal than the right. small part to fix, but no local techs and would cost me about $500 to repair by shipping to QSC. so i may try to fix this on my own one day.

it has built in wi-fi (a little USB chip) which works well within say 30 feet or so. if the wifi/ipad goes down, you can mix from the front panel touchscreen, but it's pretty slow when you really need to fix something fast. still, it's there and i've definitely needed it from time to time.

another feature is it has 2 dedicated stereo outputs (TRS on the top panel, usually for IEM) in addition to the 6 aux and 2 main outs. so more outputs than other similar units.

--
behringer xr18 or the midas version is a GREAT value. more effects and EQ bands in the parametric than anything else. only thing with this style is there are NO physical controls. this has bit me from time to time and i do prefer units with controls just in case.

that said, you can hardwire another ipad as a backup, and still have other ipads be wireless. when i use my xr12, i hardwire to the router, just so i always have some sort of control. i can unplug for setup and be wireless, but for the gig, it's hardwired.

loss of connection usually comes down to the router or interference, so it doesn't happen very often, but it can.

i'm actually wanting to get the midas 18 channel as a backup that stays in the car.

as long as you can hardwire, i totally recommend this mixer for most people getting into digital. just get the 18 channel. all XLR combo inputs, 8 outputs... the 16 and 12 version are pretty niche and more channels is always better.

i don't rack it, i just have it as a stagebox and plug everything in. much easier to carry this way.

--
the x32 rack is a step up for sure from the air series, but it's bigger and heavier. way more inputs and outputs on board though - 8 XLR + 6 1/4" outputs, and 16 XLR + 6 1/4" inputs. more effects at the same time. but the air series really has a good amount of this stuff.

the setup is a bit old as you need to specifically assign an IP address, but that's typically a one time thing. but the OS does feel "old" compared to the newer mixers.

mine has been rock solid, but after 12 years or so of use, the front panel knobs are starting to fail. i like this one because if the ipad goes down, you can adjust things from the crowded front panel, but it's a lot of menu diving or scrolling to get to the right channels, but again it's there. i usually had the monitor output channels ready to adjust in case of any feed back.

--
a benefit of the x32 or xair series is you can use the Mixing Station 3rd party app - you need to buy a license for each of those units, but you can set up you own layouts of the faders, controls, and more. but even the default layouts are really useful, putting only the faders and buses you need during the show. and you can run this off a phone size device. all other apps require a "tablet" to use.

--
the yamaha stuff is good too, but cuts some features in others with the price range. only 15 out of 31 bands of the graphics can be used at a time, which kinda makes sense, but is such a weird limitation. less FX at the same time.

but the apps are good and the sound is good. the TF rack has a touch screen that you can mix with if the ipad goes down.

the DM3s just came out this year and it's what i'm bringing out currently. only 16 inputs and 8 outputs physically, so more than a 3 piece with stereo ears each isn't possible. but it has motorized faders, a huge touch screen and is generally easy to use. i've recently preferred having the faders, mute buttons and everything available so i don't have to have the ipad on my mic stand the entire gig in case something comes up.

--
for the Evolve 50, they're nice because you don't have to have speaker stands for the tops, but this can also limit placement. but having the sub with it simplifies things a lot.

the "M" versions have more input channels and a basic mixer via Bluetooth and app, which is cool for a minimal setup. FX built in.

a soundguy i frequently work with brings 2 Evolve 50 for mains, and though they sound good, the dispersion of the tops can be great and problematic at the same time.

the tops really spread the sound out nicely, so it's more like an array vs a speaker facing in one direction. but at a recent gig, he had a ton of feedback problems with just a single speech mic. since it's not a beam of sound, the mic picked up the speakers at really odd areas. so that can be an issue, but speaker placement could easily solve it.
 
i prefer digital mixers because i can save and reload the settings exactly when i play different gigs throughout the week. also there is way more control over EQ per output and many nice things per input (comp, gate, eq, etc). that said, you have to understand that stuff to make use of it, but doesn't hurt to have and learn as you go.

as long as you have an ipad or two and can keep them charged and are ok using them, digital is nice to use. you'll need a wireless router as well.

i've used the x32, xr12 or xr18, touchmix 16, yamaha tf rack and yamaha dm3s over the past few years.

i wrote a lot below, sorry, but i've been researching and trying out mixers for years.

if i had to choose, get the midas air 18. best value for the money a TON of features. better mic pres and the XLRs actually lock on the midas vs the behringer version. just have an ipad dedicated as a hardwire, like i mention below.

lots of great options out there, but the details can make or break some setups.

--
touchmix 16 is great because it's so small, but a problem creeping up on them these days is they overheat because they're so small, and capacitors at output stages mushroom and start to fail. my tm16 has the mauin left channel about 6 dB less signal than the right. small part to fix, but no local techs and would cost me about $500 to repair by shipping to QSC. so i may try to fix this on my own one day.

it has built in wi-fi (a little USB chip) which works well within say 30 feet or so. if the wifi/ipad goes down, you can mix from the front panel touchscreen, but it's pretty slow when you really need to fix something fast. still, it's there and i've definitely needed it from time to time.

another feature is it has 2 dedicated stereo outputs (TRS on the top panel, usually for IEM) in addition to the 6 aux and 2 main outs. so more outputs than other similar units.

--
behringer xr18 or the midas version is a GREAT value. more effects and EQ bands in the parametric than anything else. only thing with this style is there are NO physical controls. this has bit me from time to time and i do prefer units with controls just in case.

that said, you can hardwire another ipad as a backup, and still have other ipads be wireless. when i use my xr12, i hardwire to the router, just so i always have some sort of control. i can unplug for setup and be wireless, but for the gig, it's hardwired.

loss of connection usually comes down to the router or interference, so it doesn't happen very often, but it can.

i'm actually wanting to get the midas 18 channel as a backup that stays in the car.

as long as you can hardwire, i totally recommend this mixer for most people getting into digital. just get the 18 channel. all XLR combo inputs, 8 outputs... the 16 and 12 version are pretty niche and more channels is always better.

i don't rack it, i just have it as a stagebox and plug everything in. much easier to carry this way.

--
the x32 rack is a step up for sure from the air series, but it's bigger and heavier. way more inputs and outputs on board though - 8 XLR + 6 1/4" outputs, and 16 XLR + 6 1/4" inputs. more effects at the same time. but the air series really has a good amount of this stuff.

the setup is a bit old as you need to specifically assign an IP address, but that's typically a one time thing. but the OS does feel "old" compared to the newer mixers.

mine has been rock solid, but after 12 years or so of use, the front panel knobs are starting to fail. i like this one because if the ipad goes down, you can adjust things from the crowded front panel, but it's a lot of menu diving or scrolling to get to the right channels, but again it's there. i usually had the monitor output channels ready to adjust in case of any feed back.

--
a benefit of the x32 or xair series is you can use the Mixing Station 3rd party app - you need to buy a license for each of those units, but you can set up you own layouts of the faders, controls, and more. but even the default layouts are really useful, putting only the faders and buses you need during the show. and you can run this off a phone size device. all other apps require a "tablet" to use.

--
the yamaha stuff is good too, but cuts some features in others with the price range. only 15 out of 31 bands of the graphics can be used at a time, which kinda makes sense, but is such a weird limitation. less FX at the same time.

but the apps are good and the sound is good. the TF rack has a touch screen that you can mix with if the ipad goes down.

the DM3s just came out this year and it's what i'm bringing out currently. only 16 inputs and 8 outputs physically, so more than a 3 piece with stereo ears each isn't possible. but it has motorized faders, a huge touch screen and is generally easy to use. i've recently preferred having the faders, mute buttons and everything available so i don't have to have the ipad on my mic stand the entire gig in case something comes up.

--
for the Evolve 50, they're nice because you don't have to have speaker stands for the tops, but this can also limit placement. but having the sub with it simplifies things a lot.

the "M" versions have more input channels and a basic mixer via Bluetooth and app, which is cool for a minimal setup. FX built in.

a soundguy i frequently work with brings 2 Evolve 50 for mains, and though they sound good, the dispersion of the tops can be great and problematic at the same time.

the tops really spread the sound out nicely, so it's more like an array vs a speaker facing in one direction. but at a recent gig, he had a ton of feedback problems with just a single speech mic. since it's not a beam of sound, the mic picked up the speakers at really odd areas. so that can be an issue, but speaker placement could easily solve it.
when you say 'hardwire' are you referring to using an external router connected to the mixer via cat5? or are you referring to connecting a tablet via cat5 (wasnt aware this was possible if so) to control the mix?

thanks for the detailed response.
 
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