Axe-FX III with Real cab vs. the Real thing

[AtomicBlaze]

Yeah, why spend $5500 when you can just spend $3800?

The cheapest LPC on Reverb right now is $3K, for a player-grade Norlin-era LPC with frets “good enough to play on”.



How about meeting somewhere in the middle? I just got an Edwards LP Custom that I’d put up against any Gibson LP Custom without hesitation. You can get them for about $1K on Reverb/Ebay. They’re spec’d just like an LPC, no odd shapes, even the headstock is exact. I’m trying to sell a Deluxe Reverb right now so I can buy one in white. I’m really loving the MIJ Les Pauls as of late, that’s an Orville sitting next to it (Gibson managed Orville in the 90’s). Aside from a few rare Burny’s and some Tokai’s, Edwards is the only company that did ebony boards on the LP Customs. Edwards IS ESP, so really, you get both of what ya wanted!

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And without devolving into a Gibson QC thread, there’s no way I’d ever fork over the cash to buy a Gibson without playing it first, but I have no problem buying more of these Edwards LPC’s without ever seeing them in person if it’s new or in mint condition!

Those do look really killer and tempting, it definitely has the look I am after. What is the neck profile like on those is it more of an ESP Eclipse shape or Gibson LPC shape, do they still make them or do you have to buy them used?

 

[Budda]

This where @RevDrucifer shudders seeing me say 3/4 of my CS LP’s were bought blind. 2 are lifers.

 

[Orvillain]

I can't tell with cleans. I can't tell with edge of break-up tones. But I'm convinced I can tell with loud high-gain amps. I've got a Diezel VH4 from 2001, and comparing it to the Dizzy models with similar settings (similar perceived bass, mid, treble levels, so knob positions quite different) the real VH4 and cab seems to have a reactance to the FEEL - yes I fuckin' said it - that the Axe into Seymour Duncan Powerstage doesn't quite have.

It's not a case of it being night and day, and I'd probably be fooled if I wasn't playing.

I really want to try a solid state class A/B amp to see if that is the difference.

Queue the piss taking!!

 

[Orvillain]

All that matters is what sounds good.

Although I will say at the end of the day, yes. This is what I agree with.

Kemper didn't sound good to me going through a guitar cab.

Helix, Axe, and QC actually do.

 

[FractalAudio]

I can't tell with cleans. I can't tell with edge of break-up tones. But I'm convinced I can tell with loud high-gain amps. I've got a Diezel VH4 from 2001, and comparing it to the Dizzy models with similar settings (similar perceived bass, mid, treble levels, so knob positions quite different) the real VH4 and cab seems to have a reactance to the FEEL - yes I fuckin' said it - that the Axe into Seymour Duncan Powerstage doesn't quite have.

It's not a case of it being night and day, and I'd probably be fooled if I wasn't playing.

I really want to try a solid state class A/B amp to see if that is the difference.

Queue the piss taking!!

Use a good power amp and try again. Those Powerstage things are budget Class-D amplifiers in a shiny box. The damping factor on them is quite poor at high frequencies.

 

[laxu]

Use a good power amp and try again. Those Powerstage things are budget Class-D amplifiers in a shiny box. The damping factor on them is quite poor at high frequencies.

ICEPower modules in a box pretty much.

Besides the Matrix, what do you recommend? I have seen you mention Hypex poweramps but I don't think those are available in any guitar oriented product?

 

[AtomicBlaze]

Guys I have come to a decision after some extensive playing with my new setup. I am 95% certain that for me the Axe-Fx->Power Station->Cab is the best possible tone I can achieve, I am going to cancel my order for the Mesa amp. The missing link for me was the Power Station -> Cab, and it ended any gas I have for a real amp. Now I just need to figure out if I want to order an ESP Eclipse or Gibson LPC with my 4.5k store credit.

 

[gitfruit]

ICEPower modules in a box pretty much.

Besides the Matrix, what do you recommend? I have seen you mention Hypex poweramps but I don't think those are available in any guitar oriented product?

Hypex poweramps are in the CLRs

 

[ElectricPhase]

Hmmm. I've been experimenting with a combination of my RCF monitor and a guitar cab with an F12-X200.

I believe the technical assessment....but I grabbed a used Powerstage to drive the cab a few months back, and it's doing a pretty good job for me.

 

[northern_fox]

ICEPower modules in a box pretty much.

Besides the Matrix, what do you recommend? I have seen you mention Hypex poweramps but I don't think those are available in any guitar oriented product?

Dunno about them but ISP stealth is class AB. So is the pedalbaby, though it's a little colored I think. Crown XTI but it's big and heavy. My matrix is still my goto for everything

 

[pipboy90]

I've done a lot of testing with different power amps and the Axe. The best I've tried is the Fryette LXII, which is a tube power amp. It produces the feel and high/low end correctly that I wasn't getting with the Matrix GT-1000. The Matrix sounded "congested" in the low mids and the high end was a bit weird sounding. The powerstage isn't even worth considering, imo. It felt like I was plugged into a cinderblock in terms of response/feel.

 

[Budda]

Guys I have come to a decision after some extensive playing with my new setup. I am 95% certain that for me the Axe-Fx->Power Station->Cab is the best possible tone I can achieve, I am going to cancel my order for the Mesa amp. The missing link for me was the Power Station -> Cab, and it ended any gas I have for a real amp. Now I just need to figure out if I want to order an ESP Eclipse or Gibson LPC with my 4.5k store credit.

(Lpc)

 

[alethomantis]

I've done a lot of testing with different power amps and the Axe. The best I've tried is the Fryette LXII, which is a tube power amp. It produces the feel and high/low end correctly that I wasn't getting with the Matrix GT-1000. The Matrix sounded "congested" in the low mids and the high end was a bit weird sounding. The powerstage isn't even worth considering, imo. It felt like I was plugged into a cinderblock in terms of response/feel.

I agree with your assessment of the Matrix - had similar issues with it and ended up selling it. However, in my experience, with the SD Powerstage, I was able to achieve the best results so far. One thing I observed is that using the 16ohm cab input (despite the loss of power output, but 45W is still quite good) resulted in a subjectively better tone (less unpleasant abrasive highs).

 

[alethomantis]

ICEPower modules in a box pretty much.

Besides the Matrix, what do you recommend? I have seen you mention Hypex poweramps but I don't think those are available in any guitar oriented product?

I had raised this question previously on this forum - whether Hypex or Purifi (high end class D) poweramps would yield better performance in a power amp + cab setting. I would be very curious to hear from the main man himself @FractalAudio, whether that would be an avenue to pursue?

 

[bdrepko]

I've done a lot of testing with different power amps and the Axe. The best I've tried is the Fryette LXII, which is a tube power amp. It produces the feel and high/low end correctly that I wasn't getting with the Matrix GT-1000. The Matrix sounded "congested" in the low mids and the high end was a bit weird sounding. The powerstage isn't even worth considering, imo. It felt like I was plugged into a cinderblock in terms of response/feel.

Nice. Are you disabling power amp simulation? Also, which impedance curve are you using?

 

[FractalAudio]

I had raised this question previously on this forum - whether Hypex or Purifi (high end class D) poweramps would yield better performance in a power amp + cab setting. I would be very curious to hear from the main man himself @FractalAudio, whether that would be an avenue to pursue?

Possibly. Hypex has much better damping specs. Never researched Purifi.

A lot of it is about transient energy storage. A tube amp stores a LOT of energy. Take a typical 100W tube amp like a Diezel. It will typically have 220uF of reservoir capacitance and a B+ of 450V. The energy stored is 22.3 Joules!!!

Now take a typical consumer Class-D "500W" power amp (actual continuous power about 100W). They usually have voltage rails around 50V and 680uF or so of capacitance. The energy stored (assuming bipolar supplies) is 1.7 Joules.

The tube amp has over 13 times the energy storage. So those palm mute transients are reproduced accurately. The Class-D amp runs out of gas.

For example, if your transient duration is, say, 100ms, and you're pushing a full 100W then the energy required is 10 Joules. The Class-D amp simply can't do it.

It's one of my pet peeves. People use cheap, low-end, consumer grade Class-D power amps and then make bold proclamations that the models don't sound as good as the real amp without understanding even a lick of the physics involved.

I put an Axe-Fx through a Crown X2 once and it Marty McFly'd me.

 

[Orvillain]

Use a good power amp and try again. Those Powerstage things are budget Class-D amplifiers in a shiny box. The damping factor on them is quite poor at high frequencies.

I can absolutely believe it.

Have you tried the Orange Pedal Baby out of interest?? It's a 100-watt class a/b amp, so I figure it should feel a bit closer to a cranked tube amp???

 

[Orvillain]

Possibly. Hypex has much better damping specs. Never researched Purifi.

A lot of it is about transient energy storage. A tube amp stores a LOT of energy. Take a typical 100W tube amp like a Diezel. It will typically have 220uF of reservoir capacitance and a B+ of 450V. The energy stored is 22.3 Joules!!!

Now take a typical consumer Class-D "500W" power amp (actual continuous power about 100W). They usually have voltage rails around 50V and 680uF or so of capacitance. The energy stored (assuming bipolar supplies) is 1.7 Joules.

The tube amp has over 13 times the energy storage. So those palm mute transients are reproduced accurately. The Class-D amp runs out of gas.

For example, if your transient duration is, say, 100ms, and you're pushing a full 100W then the energy required is 10 Joules. The Class-D amp simply can't do it.

It's one of my pet peeves. People use cheap, low-end, consumer grade Class-D power amps and then make bold proclamations that the models don't sound as good as the real amp without understanding even a lick of the physics involved.

I put an Axe-Fx through a Crown X2 once and it Marty McFly'd me.

Yes 100%, same when they claim that you need 2 or 3 times the wattage in a solid state amp versus tube. It just doesn't respect the physics IMHO.

The problem with the Powerstage isn't at all volume. There's plenty of that. Even headroom. But it's feel - sag, bounce, compression, whatever you wanna call it - it is a flat and lifeless poweramp and more or less hampers whatever you put through it, again IMHO.

When I tried the Fryette Power Station 100-watter, it was very good. I'm wondering if the LXII or Pedal Baby match up to that. Me thinks I need to do a test purchase!

I had a jam with @clarky last week. He uses two 4x12's and an Axe FX II, and Matrix poweramps. It did sound much better than what I've gotten from the Powerstage.

 

[FractalAudio]

Yes 100%, same when they claim that you need 2 or 3 times the wattage in a solid state amp versus tube. It just doesn't respect the physics IMHO.

The problem with the Powerstage isn't at all volume. There's plenty of that. Even headroom. But it's feel - sag, bounce, compression, whatever you wanna call it - it is a flat and lifeless poweramp and more or less hampers whatever you put through it, again IMHO.

When I tried the Fryette Power Station 100-watter, it was very good. I'm wondering if the LXII or Pedal Baby match up to that. Me thinks I need to do a test purchase!

I had a jam with @clarky last week. He uses two 4x12's and an Axe FX II, and Matrix poweramps. It did sound much better than what I've gotten from the Powerstage.

Try your Axe-Fx III with his setup. The II doesn't have the same dynamics as the III.

Be sure to set the output mode in the Amp block to "SS PWR AMP + CAB".

 

[laxu]

When I tried the Fryette Power Station 100-watter, it was very good. I'm wondering if the LXII or Pedal Baby match up to that. Me thinks I need to do a test purchase!

Afaik the LXII is pretty much a stereo version of the Power Station poweramp.

I found my 100W Class D BluGuitar Amp 1 Mercury Edition sounded and felt very similar to the PS-100, maybe a bit more "characterful" since it's a guitar poweramp. It's the only Class D amp I've used so maybe that's why I've had so great results running any modeler through it. Personally I could not tell it apart from a similarly voiced Bogner I used to have.