Axe-Fx III vs Helix

nothing, not even the Fm3, is as good as the axe 3

it’s not gonna Make the helix any better, ever....

See, that's the sort of bald statement, with zero evidence, that irks me. It's just an opinion. It's YOUR opinion. That makes it no more or less valid than mine or anyone else's. It does NOT make it fact.

It's analogous to me saying that the Ferrari is WAY better than the Lamborghini - or vice versa. It's pointless, senseless, and fact-less.

Here's a good example of how to do a comparison. This guy does a series of them, but they are completely unbiased in either direction:

 
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Dude
its not an opinion
the only thing that CAME close to FAS is/was the kemper, but thats it man
im sorry, but its the wrong place to try to validate the helix

its a great product, but the BEST product available is the axe iii man
maybe its a little bold to be so assertive or matter of fact
but its been not just verified by others, but by me, whose opinion I do hold in high regard lol

If the kemper falls short, the Helix definitely doesnt fill in the gap...seriously man, its just the wrong place because everyone here, whether they are a fanboy or not, which I’m not (i just got my stuff a few months ago, and was a hardcore kemper user before), we all know the truth

thats why we keep coming back to update our FW

(and no, its not like lambo or Ferrari, its like lambo or an M6 from Germany’s M shop, it might be off the charts awesome, but its not a lambo/ferrari, not at all)
 
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What are you talking about? You can toggle and switch presets on the Helix in exactly the same way you can on the Axe with an FC on the floor. You can run the Helix (or the Axe) in Preset/Patch mode, or you can flick it to Scene/Snapshot mode. In fact, on the Helix, that's just a toe tap. On the FC-12 I have, it's a strange rocking motion between two switches that has to be done and THEN tap another switch to put it into Scene mode. The Helix is far easier from that point of view.

I mean, really, there are fanboyz and there are FANBOYZ. As someone who owns and uses both, I find it ridiculous, and oh so predictable, to read on the Fractal forums why the Fractal is so much better, and on the Line 6 forums why the Helix is so much better. Sweeping generalisations are not evidence - they're opinions. And it's largely confirmation bias, because people prefer one over the other for whatever reason. But wild statements about differences in tone, playability, response, tweakability, etc etc are just rubbish. There are good and bad sounds from both, there are great sounds from both, and I just think we're lucky to live now in a world where we have access to such amazing technology from both.
The only toggle function is to toggle between the current preset and the last preset. On the AXE3 you can set a toggle between the current preset and any specified preset using the FC6/FC12. There is no way to do this on the Helix. I have mine set as follow.

Scene 8 is my lead scene.

SW1 toggles between scene1 (clean) and scene8
SW2 toggles between scene2 (dirt) and scene8
SW3 toggles between scene3 (heavy) and scene8

I use this functionality a lot as I play songs with short lead runs and dont want to have to try to switch between two different buttons. Having a single switch to toggle between makes it much simpler.

Also, I am no no fanboy. It is not a sweeping generalization. I state IMO. Do you know what that means troll. In case you dont it means IN MY OPINION. Get it troll, OPINION!
 
The only toggle function is to toggle between the current preset and the last preset. On the AXE3 you can set a toggle between the current preset and any specified preset using the FC6/FC12. There is no way to do this on the Helix. I have mine set as follow.

Scene 8 is my lead scene.

SW1 toggles between scene1 (clean) and scene8
SW2 toggles between scene2 (dirt) and scene8
SW3 toggles between scene3 (heavy) and scene8

I use this functionality a lot as I play songs with short lead runs and dont want to have to try to switch between two different buttons. Having a single switch to toggle between makes it much simpler.

Also, I am no no fanboy. It is not a sweeping generalization. I state IMO. Do you know what that means troll. In case you dont it means IN MY OPINION. Get it troll, OPINION!

Yup - I know what IMO means, and no I'm not trolling. Okay - now I know what you're referring to by toggling, then yes, you're right - the Fractal does that, the Helix doesn't (at least on my Helix Rack and Floor control combo). Yes, I can set that up on the FC-12, and I can see how that would be handy. However, for my use when I need to flick or toggle back and forth between rhythm and lead sounds, I just use two adjacent switches. Works just as well really.

The fanboy comments were not aimed at you specifically - they were aimed at the more general range of posts seen on the forums, complete with confirmation bias going each way. The video link I posted above shows an excellent comparison between Fractal and Helix and with no bias either way. Your ears can be the judge.
 
Yup - I know what IMO means, and no I'm not trolling. Okay - now I know what you're referring to by toggling, then yes, you're right - the Fractal does that, the Helix doesn't (at least on my Helix Rack and Floor control combo). Yes, I can set that up on the FC-12, and I can see how that would be handy. However, for my use when I need to flick or toggle back and forth between rhythm and lead sounds, I just use two adjacent switches. Works just as well really.

The fanboy comments were not aimed at you specifically - they were aimed at the more general range of posts seen on the forums, complete with confirmation bias going each way. The video link I posted above shows an excellent comparison between Fractal and Helix and with no bias either way. Your ears can be the judge.
Its all good. I actually requested multiple times for Line6 to implement that feature. Like the AX8, I am a big fan of the floor pedal format. It makes a difference in the amount of gear I have to haul.
 
In my opinion a video doesn’t tell anything. It demonstrates nothing about how it feels to play. Any of the top modelers can be made to sound fantastic, but they feel and respond differently. Again I own Helix so I don’t have a dog in the fight. Since cars were mentioned here’s an example. I have a Camry and an Accord, but I prefer the throttle response and steering better on the Camry. I still say the Accord is a great car, but you tell me the Accord is just as good and I’m a Toyota fanboy. My opinion is not any less valid than yours. We all hear different things and I’ll continue to enjoy both.
 
In my opinion a video doesn’t tell anything. It demonstrates nothing about how it feels to play. Any of the top modelers can be made to sound fantastic, but they feel and respond differently. Again I own Helix so I don’t have a dog in the fight. Since cars were mentioned here’s an example. I have a Camry and an Accord, but I prefer the throttle response and steering better on the Camry. I still say the Accord is a great car, but you tell me the Accord is just as good and I’m a Toyota fanboy. My opinion is not any less valid than yours. We all hear different things and I’ll continue to enjoy both.

But that is the whole point - it's purely a matter of opinion. People post things as "fact", that A smokes B, that B is so much better than A, etc etc.

And my whole point is that it's a matter of opinion - like preferring a Les Paul to a Strat, for example. At the end of the day, you can make good sounds and good music with either a Helix or a Fractal (and no doubt others as well). One isn't "better" than the other. It's just personal preference. And as I've said, i have both and I use both. I also use several different guitars because one may be just what I feel like playing at the time. Doesn't mean that one is better than the other.

The Fractal and the Helix are SO close in sound, accuracy, playability, feel, etc, and both are so powerful that you can basically get either of them to sound like anything, that comparing them and saying one is better than the other is a pointless exercise.

Now having said that (again) I'm out of this dogfight :)
 
Meh, believe what you want, use what you want, whatever makes you happy.

At the end of it all nobody can win cuz there is no 'better' right? All modelers are created equal and sound equal and play equal, and nobody can tell the difference. They're all equally flexible, updated regularly, sound the same, make the same groundbreaking strides, are equally easy to use and edit and easy to sound bad. One big happy world. Hell, the players using them are equal too, Vai and I are the same level, same as Guthrie and Petrucci, we're all equal!
 
Doctor Wu - interesting guitar photo for your profile. What is it?

Reason I ask - purely out of curiosity - is that I have a very similar looking guitar. It's Bernie Rico Junior's #3 (and last ever) "Valiant" hand-built instrument. Here's the photo - and you'll see why your photo piqued my interest :)

It's a Schecter C-1 Classic, very nice guitar, they do look quite similar don't they.

IMG_0681s.jpg
 
Looks like the first is a camphor burl top with a neck through maple neck, ebony fingerboard with an ash body? Hard to tell from the pic....Is that a bone nut with wraparound bridge as well?
The schecter looks like a flamed maple top with a neck through possibly maple neck, with a rosewood fingerboard?

Both absolutely stunning, VERY similar themes, even the knobs look similar at a first glance! I mistook them for twins!
 
Here's an objective reason why the Axe Fx is better than the Helix and other modelers/profiler:




That noise might not tell you anything by itself, but it represents one of the aspects that make FAS modeling so great: unpredictability.

I obtained this track by recording a little sample with a patch in which I had 2 identical amp blocks hard panned, then inverted the phase on one channel and summed them to mono.
If you do the same with the Helix (I did) you'll get just silence and a bit of floor noise.
This means that amp models in the Axe FX add some "randomness" to the tone, every note you play sounds slightly different than the previous ones and this is what happens in a real tube amps too.

If you want to understand why that happens read what Cliff said in this old interview:

"Nowadays, when most people do modeling, they use what are called wave shapers, which is basically just a nonlinearity in math. So they’ll say you can either use polynomials or piecewise polynomials. I believe a lot of the earlier company that begins with an L used a thing called a piecewise polynomial, which basically says if your input signal is over a certain value, then this is your function. If it’s between this value and another value it’s this function, and you splice all those polynomials together.


There are other approaches where you just use a polynomial or trigonometric functions and things like that. The problem with all those approaches is they are static – they’re a static transfer function. So whenever the input is here you know the output is… I mean, you can plot it on a piece of paper. You always know. Real tubes, on the other hand, have memory. They don’t have memory themselves, but they have memory due to their parasitic capacitance. Due to the actual terminal impedances, most designers will put a cathode cap on there, and a lot of times there will be a capacitor on the plate as well and possibly on the grid.

So those capacitors remember the charge that was on them, because charge can’t bleed off instantaneously. Or at least it can’t without burning up the traces on the board. So G2 Modeling is actually like a wave shaper, but it has memory, and so the transfer function changes over time based on the memory of the function. And it’s also based on the feedback and the frequency and everything else, so just like a real tube that transfers function changes with amplitude and time.

That, however, is a very CPU intensive process. It requires a lot of steps to simulate that. Simulating just one triode is almost as much horsepower as the entire modeling in the old Axe-Fx. When you start stringing together three or four triodes the algorithm is much more CPU intensive. You couldn’t run that on an Ultra and have any horsepower left for anything else, maybe just a basic delay and a reverb and something. Customers wouldn’t be very happy if they had an inventory of fifty effects and they could only use an amp, a cab, and one effect at a time. So the only way around that for the Axe-Fx II, given that we’re kind of at a plateau in DSP processing speeds right now, is to put two of them in there. One of them is dedicated to just the amp modeling and the other one does all the other stuff."
 
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Looks like the first is a camphor burl top with a neck through maple neck, ebony fingerboard with an ash body? Hard to tell from the pic....Is that a bone nut with wraparound bridge as well?
The schecter looks like a flamed maple top with a neck through possibly maple neck, with a rosewood fingerboard?

Both absolutely stunning, VERY similar themes, even the knobs look similar at a first glance! I mistook them for twins!
It's rosewood burl, the body is mahogany, and the through-neck is maple and rosewood 5-piece. Fingerboard - you're spot on - is ebony. Nut and bridge as you say. Well spotted :) And it plays like butter. The pups are Duncans, a JB and a '59. He made three of these in his custom shop - this one is signed and numbered #3. Even the headstock has the rosewood burl front.
 
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That is a damned sweet guitar if I ever sawn one, it looked like a mahogany body, i actually had that written at first but it was so large grained I guessed ash lol
Very nice! You don't usually hear of necks that are made with maple and rosewood, that's very interesting! First time I've seen rosewood burl as well, very beautiful guitar!
 
Why compare the Helix to the Axe III? When clearly it was already straining to even catch up to the Axe II. And still is. The III is so far ahead Line 6 needs to come up with the Helix II, or something else. Which they probably are. The AX-8 is the only FAS product that is probably equal in performance and abilities, and there the Helix has some points in its favor. The rack version of the Helix doesn't count because that's just the floorboard in a rack unit with some extra switching options.

A scientific method to examine the data:

  • Fractal fans say the axe sounds better than the helix
  • Line6 fans say helix is on par with the axe
  • Pretty much no-one says helix sounds better than the axe

Make an average and you'll see where the truth lies.

I reckon even in the Standard days Fractal was always the gold standard as far as modelers were concerned. So sounding as good as the Axe is probably a selling point to Helix users, especially as it only costs half as much?
 
So sounding as good as the Axe is probably a selling point to Helix users, especially as it only costs half as much?
Yup, and that's something they said even when there still were only the Pod HD and the Axe FX II around, I think you can still find a few videos on youtube where someone compares the two and states they sound the same.
As soon as I bought the axe fx II I realized there couldn't be anything further from truth, but somehow I have to thank those videos cuz that's how I knew about the existence of the axe fx, unwanted advertising :D
 
How does everyone think the UAD amp models compare to Fractal? Ppl like Friedman and Suhr say they are the closest, but of course they are getting paid for having their name on it..lol
 
Why compare the Helix to the Axe III? ...

...We could choose to look at it another way, too.. Line6 brings Fractal forth - just check out the new-gen displays and scribble-strips on the AXEIII/FM3/FCs ..and Fractal is pushing Line6 (or whoever) to create next-gen modelling algorithms.

All of this works in our favor.. And shouldn't necessarily be discouraged using false equivalency.

No point in arguing really. ...maybe just kick-back and enjoy, as all this competition to excel for market share is generally such a great thing.
 
I've owned many modelers over the years. I've owned the Helix since a month or so after it was released. I've owned the Axe III a couple of months after it was released (as quickly as I got the email I could make my purchase). I think the design of both the hardware and software around each of the products is really great for the most part. There are some things I'd like to see tweaked but that will always be true. It can feel a bit awkward trying to work with both products as they have some varying philosophies and features but at the end of the day both are very impressive.

Since I'd owned the Helix for a quite a while before the III was released I was pretty much fully committed. For the past year or so the III has been at home barely used. I have only a small amount of time to devote to music these days and just practicing with my band sucks up most of that time. I also own a Variax and PowerCab Plus and love the integration between the products. All that being said I have always struggled to really dial in the Helix. At this point I have a lot of useable presets but still have found myself feeing unsatisfied.

I was finally able to set aside some time to spend on my rig. I've been wanting to integrate a laptop into my rig to use some cool plugins and also my Fishman Triple Play to trigger some synth stuff. I have also wanted to start using the III in tandem with the Helix. I decided to focus just on the III as I recently picked up the FC-12 and needed to get myself up to speed with the basics of it all. After about an hour of reading through the docs and watching some videos I had global settings tweaked to my taste, levels set, etc and had started going through some presets. I was feeling pretty blown away. I started looking around at some other presets from Austin Buddy, Brett Kingman, Leon Todd, Yek, and Camilo Velandia and after going through those was even more blown away.

A couple of days later I took the III to rehearsal. I used a few of the presets from Camilo Velandia unaltered that were pretty close to spirit of the first couple of songs in our set and everyone in my band was like "Wow... what is that? Use that rig from now on." The rest of the rehearsal I was getting comments like "You really nailed that solo... have you been working on it?" I was like no... I haven't been... in fact I kind messed up but I just sound better through this rig.

It kinda pains me to write this as I do love a lot about the Helix. I'm thinking I may sell the full floor model and possibly get an HX Stomp. There are quite a few effects in the Helix I dig I just think the amp modeling is what is lacking.
 
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