Axe FX II with real cabs - cab sim off -> gain structure is completely different

G

Georg80

Member
Hi everybody,
I know there has been a lot of discussion, whether to use real cabs in live situations or FRFR systems.
But I've never seen anybody stating that the main problem of using real cabs (and then of course turning the cab sim in the axe off) is that the gain structure of the presets change dramatically.

For example, when I use the vibrato-verb amp with basketweave tv cabs and dial in a perfect tone with a slightly break up when hitting the string a bit harder and then use the same preset but turning off cab sims and playing it through my Matrix GT 1000 FX into a Mesa-Boogie Rectifier 4x12 real cabinet, the sound is completely overdriven.
Even worse if I use High-Gain presets - it sound like a chainsaw through my mesa.

So playing live with real cabs behind me and simulated cabs to the FOH becomes completely impossible, because I hear two completely different sound.

Has anybody a solution for this?
 
This should not happen.
There will be some difference, but not that big.

Post the preset?
 
yek said:
This should not happen.
There will be some difference, but not that big.

Post the preset?
Click to expand...
+1.

Also, if the cab IR is NOTHING like the cab you use the preset is likely worthless without significant post-EQ; even then it might not be salvageable.

jollo said:
If you switch the cab sim on and off, you'll notice the cab sim adds about 4 or 5 db of gain.
Click to expand...
I'm really skeptical of this claim. Cabs are passive as an effect; it will only add gain if you use two in parallel because it is adding a second signal path. You could raise the level or the IR could be poorly shot but those are pilot error.
 
Last edited:
I run both direct to a CLR and to a 4x12 via a Matrix pwr amp simultaneously. I do not experience this. The gain structure isn't different between the 2 sources. The only difference is the obvious between a live cab and the FRFR monitor.
I agree with Cliff, something is amiss in your setup/settings.
 
This happened even with factory settings for example "Recto New" or "Wrecker" Presets.
I haven't tried it on firmware 15 and 16 cause I now only use my Matrix FR212 cab (without any issues) but it surely happened on earlier versions.

So what could be my mistake?
 
Think about it logically... The cab block cannot reduce gain or distortion. If you are getting MORE distortion with the cab block bypassed into a power amp and cab then distortion is being added somewhere. Possibilities include overdriving the Axe-Fx outputs, in which case the clip LEDs should light, or overdriving the input to the power amp.
 
Very strange that nobody else noticed this problem before.
I'm gonna record it in the room so that you can hear what I mean.
It's like the whole amp reacts way different, and this can be caused by cabs, or am I wrong?
 
I use these two configs:
Axe -> GT1000FX -> pair of Marshall 4x12 cabs
Axe -> Marshall 8008 -> pair of Marshall 4x12 cabs

I've not noticed any difference in grain..
there is however a difference in tone because the cabs are real and not IR's

if you're finding more "drive" than there should be, could it be that you are running very hot from the Axe to the poweramp??
maybe the Axe-II output is very high and preset levels are pretty hot too so you're driving the poweramp's input a little hard??

don't know if this helps...
my poweramp is always set at 2/3 of max
I then use the output level on the Axe front panel to set the volume I need
my presets are not hot [when compared to the factory preset they're a little quieter]
 
Georg80 said:
So what could be my mistake?
Click to expand...

You're probably confusing turning off the power amp sim with turning off the cab sim.
The power amp sim can add gain and distortion and usually does.
Cab sim does not.

Another possibility is that you've turned down the Level parameter in your Cab Block so that when you Bypass it it gets louder.
This could potentially overdrive the input of the Matrix if you've got the Axe's output cranked and the Matrix's input turned down (I think).
 
I have experienced similar.

When using a 2x12 with WGS ET65 Speaker with "CAB sim off", it almost sounds like a fullrange system with cabsim off.
Poweramp sim off or on is not the solution.
Clean presets are mainly good but Freidman HB, HBE for example is a ´No Way´

AXE2 -> VHT2502 -> 2x12
 
Georg80 said:
Has anybody a solution for this?
Click to expand...

Yes. Leave cab sim on!
I always leave it on when using real cabs and my Matrix GT1000. I see the cab block as an extreme EQ block. When you turn the cab sim off your sound is completely different and you have to reshape your sound all over again in the rehearsal room. It works (and sounds) best for me to leave it on. But as said before by others it shouldn't make that much difference when it comes to overdrive.
 
Bodde said:
Yes. Leave cab sim on!
I always leave it on when using real cabs and my Matrix GT1000. I see the cab block as an extreme EQ block. When you turn the cab sim off your sound is completely different and you have to reshape your sound all over again in the rehearsal room. It works (and sounds) best for me to leave it on. But as said before by others it shouldn't make that much difference when it comes to overdrive.
Click to expand...

Wow, I totally disagree with you on all points. :)
 
Personally, I'd never put cab sims through a real cab. Seems like a strange thing to do to me.

OP: Post up the preset, I'll see if the same happens on my end. (I have a GT1000)
 
utilize a "null" cabinet which is essentially a "full range" IR that passes your tone through as if untouched, provided you set the speaker cabinet parameters to settings that don't filter or otherwise color the tone (unless you want to).

- use two cab blocks, one with your speaker IR (send presumably to a FRFR system, or PA system), and one with the NULL IR, sent to your amp (this allows you to take advantage of Ultra Res IRs)
- use one cab block in stereo mode, and hard pan the speaker emulated IR one way and the NULL IR the other, again, setting the NULL IR to be unfiltered/un-colored.
 
Georg80 said:
Hi everybody,
I know there has been a lot of discussion, whether to use real cabs in live situations or FRFR systems.
But I've never seen anybody stating that the main problem of using real cabs (and then of course turning the cab sim in the axe off) is that the gain structure of the presets change dramatically.

For example, when I use the vibrato-verb amp with basketweave tv cabs and dial in a perfect tone with a slightly break up when hitting the string a bit harder and then use the same preset but turning off cab sims and playing it through my Matrix GT 1000 FX into a Mesa-Boogie Rectifier 4x12 real cabinet, the sound is completely overdriven.
Even worse if I use High-Gain presets - it sound like a chainsaw through my mesa.

So playing live with real cabs behind me and simulated cabs to the FOH becomes completely impossible, because I hear two completely different sound.

Has anybody a solution for this?
Click to expand...
I know this thread is stupidly old, but I always had this problem with my axe fx standard and just bought an axe fx iii. I figured out the issue finally.

I'm using a Mesa 2x12 with V30s in it, and i couldn't figure out why bypassing the cab sim sounded like a chainsaw (as you described). However, turning cab sim on made it sound a little too dark through my cab. The issue is that V30 speakers have a frequency response range of 70-5000hz (according to celestion's website). The axe fx was sending the full frequency range to the cab, and the speakers were trying to put out stuff in the 10000hz+ range. All I did to fix this was add a filter to roll the highs off starting at 5000hz. It sounds exactly like my real triple rectifier head now. I'm not sure if there's a better way to do this. Maybe Cliff can chime in. Basically just figure out what the upper range of your particular speaker's response is, and filter out anything above that.

Now my patch sounds pretty consistent. I have the chain split before the filter. Part 1 goes to that filter and then into output 1 going to my real cab (no cab sim) and i have part 2 going cab sim and then into output 2 (into my audio interface). I'm using the legacy 4x12 Metal cab sim that i used to use on the axe fx standard so the cab characteristics are slightly different, but it sounds very consistent now. The reason I wanted to do this is that I like to jam out through my real cab while i'm recording. My studio monitors have a subwoofer, so monitoring through my monitors without my post-EQ sounds very woofy and not fun. This is also probably a good method for people who record and also gig. You can have one patch that is consistent for both applications. The only thing you should do differently than me for the sake of consistency is use a cab sim that is similar (if not identical) to your real cab.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom