That was it. Sounds exactly the same.There were no changes to those amp models. Speaker Drive is the same in Beta 7 and Beta 8 so you shouldn't need to change that. That's probably what sounds different.
Gator makes one as well. Reasonably priced. Got mine from Sweetwater.@yek
Is that a double electric guitar gig bag? If so, where does one find one of these?
BTW - Good luck at the gig!!
Edit: Just found it. It is made by Mono, right? Looks really nice. Pretty expensive and I imagine two solid bodies and some accessories would make it weigh 20-25 lbs, right? Still, I might see one of these in my future. Thx.
main project https://n-o-m-a.bandcamp.com/musicUh. Well damn man. Flat out outrageous.
Hope you find a band for all that skill, or get your own music out, or something.
Damn.
I used the same A/B method as the other FW21 amp/model comparisons. This is the 5150 block letter with BMT and Depth at 6. Presence on zero, and Master volume just below 2. The settings were mirrored on the model with MV at 1.8. To my ears, the amp has more/deeper low end and less mids in the 380-ish Hz and 800-900 Hz areas but I didn't have time to pinpoint exact frequency, level, and Q settings to get them more in line with each other. I hope this helps, and let me know if you need me to adjust anything and send again.
I fully agree with you and understand that potentiometers can vary pretty significantly from amp to amp, and cumulative differences using multiple potentiometers can make a really big difference in the end. I know a few amps have needed little things tweaked here and there in the firmware and just wanted to offer an A/B you mentioned to see if anything was "amiss" that would support what that user was experiencing.The tolerance of potentiometers is terrible. You cannot set the knobs exactly the same as a given amp and expect things to match perfectly. For example, with BMT at noon on our reference 5150 I have to set the model's bass control to around 4.5 and the treble to nearly 6 to match. This is because the bass and treble pots are not perfect in the real amp.
Do a search on potentiometer tolerance. End-to-end and center. You'll be amazed at just how poor consumer grade "quasi-log" pots are.
Our models assume the pots are "perfect" and exhibit the exact resistance as specified. I.e. if it's a 1M 10A pot then it will be exactly 100K with the wiper at mid rotation. In a real amp the end-to-end resistance is +/- 20% and the midpoint can be off another 20%. Do the math and you'll see why no two amps sound the same at the same knob settings and why the model will not necessarily match a particular amp at the same knob settings.
I assure you that our model is accurate. You may have to adjust the controls up or down as much as 20% to match a given amp. That's the nature of tolerance. Listening to the clip I would say turn the bass up to 7 or more, turn the treble and mid down a bit.
I couldn't agree with you more. If you've heard the recent amp/model comparisons I did with the SLO and Mark IV, they're very similar, and I mention that the subtle differences are akin to trying to match two physical heads that will also have little differences by nature. I matched those by ear and turned knobs accordingly and was blown away by how close they are. In this instance, a user noted that the 5150 sounded more mid-forward than the real amp, so Cliff asked for an A/B. I set the controls identically in case it brought out something he would hear that might explain the mid-forward claims, and finished by happily saying that I would make adjustments if needed. We've seen "fixed wrong X value in Y amp" pretty regularly in firmware release notes over the years that get amps and models even closer... I just wanted to offer help in case that was the situation here.If you take two 5150 amps from the same batch and same factory, and set the knobs to the exact same, the amps are almost definitely going to sound different. That doesn't mean that you can't find a setting on one amp, and then use your ear not your eye to adjust the 2nd amp to make them sound the same, but I'd bet all my money that you'll never find two 5150s that sound the same at precise knob values. As a matter of fact, the variance in amps due to pot tolerance propagates down to capacitors and resistors as well. Good amp builders take the time to balance things out to a standard 'sound' but just taking a schematic and plugging parts in doesn't guarantee that one amp will sound identical to another.
Capacitors in guitar pickup wiring? Same damn thing, you can buy two magic bumblebee paper-in-oil caps and get two very different sounds out of them.
Especially this latest update! My largest gripe with all modelers including Fractal is responsiveness to playing dynamics like pick attack or, to a greater extent, the volume knob on my guitar. I can happily say I've noticed a HUGE improvement with this latest release and finally am in a place where I hardly desire to fire up the real tube amp anymore. It just THAT good!I've got a bunch of amps that I compare to the Fractal all the time, and confidently tell people that it easily has the most accurate modeling of any product on the market. Any contributions I make are always well-intended and solely meant to either show accuracy between amp and model, or to help address something that might, but not always, need correcting. Even if the model doesn't change, I'm still gonna play the crap out of it.
I fully agree with you and understand that potentiometers can vary pretty significantly from amp to amp, and cumulative differences using multiple potentiometers can make a really big difference in the end. I know a few amps have needed little things tweaked here and there in the firmware and just wanted to offer an A/B you mentioned to see if anything was "amiss" that would support what that user was experiencing.
Here's a new comparison. Knobs around noon and subtly tweaked for a good match. With Depth at zero, they're remarkably similar. Even my frequency analyzer showed both the real amp and model with nearly identical frequency peaks! Then I set the Depth at 10 on the amp and model which is where our two units seem to vary the most (not necessarily bad, just different). The third section has the model's Depth frequency lowered from 180Hz to 140Hz. My amp still outputs more low end energy, but sonically it sounds more similar in the low-mids and cleans up that area a bit. Maybe our amps have something different happening in the Depth portion of the circuit that's causing the change? I don't know, but hopefully this helps the other user (sorry for forgetting your handle) to get things in a good spot while also confirming the accuracy in the "knobs at noon" scenario you mentioned.
I couldn't agree with you more. If you've heard the recent amp/model comparisons I did with the SLO and Mark IV, they're very similar, and I mention that the subtle differences are akin to trying to match two physical heads that will also have little differences by nature. I matched those by ear and turned knobs accordingly and was blown away by how close they are. In this instance, a user noted that the 5150 sounded more mid-forward than the real amp, so Cliff asked for an A/B. I set the controls identically in case it brought out something he would hear that might explain the mid-forward claims, and finished by happily saying that I would make adjustments if needed. We've seen "fixed wrong X value in Y amp" pretty regularly in firmware release notes over the years that get amps and models even closer... I just wanted to offer help in case that was the situation here.
I've got a bunch of amps that I compare to the Fractal all the time, and confidently tell people that it easily has the most accurate modeling of any product on the market. Any contributions I make are always well-intended and solely meant to either show accuracy between amp and model, or to help address something that might, but not always, need correcting. Even if the model doesn't change, I'm still gonna play the crap out of it.
Yep, this is pretty much the approach I've taken with the Axe-FX (II and III): Early on, I was trying to duplicate exactly what I had in my tube amps --which can be tricky given that I mostly play bass and also tend to use a few less-common boutique amps-- and over the years I've made a major shift from "copy this" to just dialing in something that sounds great on its own and moreso in the ballpark of what I was doing with 130lb 300W tube amps. Less A/B comparison and more using my "tone memory" to go at what I remember it sounding and feeling like, even if it wasn't exactly 1:1. To me, worrying about a few Hz difference was less important than "this shit sounds great!" That suits my need though: make good sounds, whereas it is probably more irrelevant in your line of work where you're making IRs and whatnot based on famous tones for mass consumption.Even if the model doesn't change, I'm still gonna play the crap out of it.
Yup, I just got a text from a well known producer and massive gear head asking about the Axe. I sent him the SLO and Mark IV comparison clips and now he wants one. I don’t think I could do that with any other modeler.Especially this latest update! My largest gripe with all modelers including Fractal is responsiveness to playing dynamics like pick attack or, to a greater extent, the volume knob on my guitar. I can happily say I've noticed a HUGE improvement with this latest release and finally am in a place where I hardly desire to fire up the real tube amp anymore. It just THAT good!
Props to Cliff and the FAS Team!
You do outstanding work, and I have nothing but immense respect and appreciation for what you do. I fully trust that the verified models are accurate to your real amps. Thanks for your dedication. It makes playing a Fractal a satisfying experience.Depth is dependent upon the speaker load. If your load doesn't match the internal speaker impedance curve exactly the response will be different.
When I'm testing amps I have a special speaker impedance curve I use that is derived from the particular LB-2 that I use. The curve included in the firmware is a typical LB-2 response. Due to component tolerances the resonant frequency and magnitude can vary as much as 20%.
Furthermore with the depth all the way up it is easy to start overdriving the power amp in the bass range. Again, due to pot tolerances the amp may be overdriving more or less than the model for a given MV setting.
I make mistakes. I'm only human. I'm also transparent about when I do. I don't have to divulge this in the release notes. Every amp was tested for 21.00 and I re-tested the 5150 the other day and it matches our reference amp.
Yup, I just got a text from a well known producer and massive gear head asking about the Axe. I sent him the SLO and Mark IV comparison clips and now he wants one. I don’t think I could do that with any other modeler.
You do outstanding work, and I have nothing but immense respect and appreciation for what you do. I fully trust that the verified models are accurate to your real amps. Thanks for your dedication. It makes playing a Fractal a satisfying experience.
Again, BLOWN AWAY that the frequency analyzer was so close on the amp and model. You’ve figured out something special with this new FW.
I captured that cab before I had my SIC measurement tools, so I can't say for sure what the best fit would be. The 4x12 Basketweave SIC tends to sound pretty great with most Marshall cabs, so I'd give that one a try and see how it feels. I could be wrong, but I think all of the Greenback curves were taken from cabs with M25s rather than H30s.While speaking of Mark IV, your Marshall BLK cab mixes #1 and #3 are great companions with that amp, with the Brit TV SIC.
Any other SIC recommendation for that specific cab is welcome, I'll test and use it for my first album
It is so good to be a guitarist who lives in 2022, who knows both Fractal and York Audio! You guys are great!
You can always save a copy of your current firmware and do a full backup of your unit before installing the Beta if you want to check it out. If you dig it, rock on... if you want to revert back to pre-Beta, you're covered. I did that and have no regrets sticking with the Beta until the release version comes out. I think you'll love it!oooh, these last talks makes me really want to install this beta..it’s quite a test for my patience..but since I waited now for what feels so long...hmm.. I feel the official release must be behind the corner..
I should add that Depth is also dependent upon the open-loop gain of the power amp which, in turn, is dependent upon the transconductance and bias point of the power tubes.Depth is dependent upon the speaker load. If your load doesn't match the internal speaker impedance curve exactly the response will be different.
When I'm testing amps I have a special speaker impedance curve I use that is derived from the particular LB-2 that I use. The curve included in the firmware is a typical LB-2 response. Due to component tolerances the resonant frequency and magnitude can vary as much as 20%.
Furthermore with the depth all the way up it is easy to start overdriving the power amp in the bass range. Again, due to pot tolerances the amp may be overdriving more or less than the model for a given MV setting.
I make mistakes. I'm only human. I'm also transparent about when I do. I don't have to divulge this in the release notes. Every amp was tested for 21.00 and I re-tested the 5150 the other day and it matches our reference amp.
That makes perfect sense. Thanks for clarifying. I like Electro-Harmonix power tubes for non-Mesa amps (Mesa brand for Mesa amps), and your amp is probably biased a bit hotter than mine... add tube age and usage differences to the equation and you've got the recipe for a big can of worms. I'm gonna mess with the bias a bit and see what happens. I think I remember you saying something about the 5150 factory bias being really cold. Do you have a ballpark idea where to set bias to get it close to factory specs?I should add that Depth is also dependent upon the open-loop gain of the power amp which, in turn, is dependent upon the transconductance and bias point of the power tubes.
Therefore different power tubes and bias point will also affect the amount of low-frequency boost.
5150s aren't adjustable.That makes perfect sense. Thanks for clarifying. I like Electro-Harmonix power tubes for non-Mesa amps (Mesa brand for Mesa amps), and your amp is probably biased a bit hotter than mine... add tube age and usage differences to the equation and you've got the recipe for a big can of worms. I'm gonna mess with the bias a bit and see what happens. I think I remember you saying something about the 5150 factory bias being really cold. Do you have a ballpark idea where to set bias to get it close to factory specs?