AXE FX 2 - gave up trying to make this work in a live situation :(

I have run an axe fx for 5+ years now straight to the PA and with K10 and similar speakers. Totally perfect for me and what I do and I use a range of sounds.

To be honest, your FRFR setup (K12s with subs) was a bit of overkill for a guitar rig. The subs will make it absolutely more difficult to create "guitar tones". I usually cut all the frequencies that subs make for my tones because it just gets flubby and loses definition.

To me, the most difficult part of transitioning from a real amp to a digital modeler of any type with FRFR PA speakers is the frequency range now available.

A guitar amp and cab sort of has its frequency limits and easily/quickly sounds like that familiar sound we know and love because that's really all it's designed for.

The axe into a full range pa with extended bass frequencies adds all sorts of things that make your amp suddenly sound distant, bassy or harsh, disconnected etc.

It's best to think more like a sound engineer than a guitarist when setting up the Axe on a full range system.

I usually cut the bass frequencies and treble for my distortion tones, either in the amp or cab block. Kind of an "upside down smiley face" EQ. A little goes a long way. That's a VERY general statement though :)

That said, there has been much success with all the ways you've tried connecting it. But if at the end of the day it's not for you, then that's what it is. Maybe not for you "right now" but do play whatever makes you feel good. Good luck!
 
Important: One monitor does not sound like another. Just like guitar cabs. You should try more options. I tried 12 different monitors before i found my option. I tried 20 pair of studio monitors before ending with my yamaha´s. Wanted the SE Eggs, but to expencive at that time.

I actually liked the combination of my HK Pro´s and the Yamaha DXR 15. Gigantic punch, but the DXR was a little big to drag around IMO.
 
Having personally used my brand new Axe-Fx II in it's first ever gig situation last night I can firmly say it cannot be beaten in tone or versatility. My rig was a little bit ramshackle and it still sounded marvellous so I think it may just be a mental thing about it being a no go (which I can fully understand, something in the back of my mind still screams "this shouldn't sound this good!")

I ran Shure Wireless -> Axe-FX -> Blackstar HT5RH Power section -> Custom 2x12 w/ Celestion 80/80's. Sounded monstrous.
 
Stringtheorist said:
Just to clarify, this is with a normal guitar cab, and cab sims in the Axe turned OFF?
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ESPECIALLY with a normal cab and no cab sims.

Here's what Cliff had to say about it:

FractalAudio said:
Furthermore there are certain aspects that simply can't be modeled and require user intervention. For example, a speaker has a low-frequency resonance. A tube amp will create a higher output at that resonant frequency. The Axe-Fx has no way of knowing what that resonant frequency is and defaults to a value that is common for the speakers that are typically used with that amp. However, if you drive that speaker through a solid-state amp you won't excite the resonance unless you adjust the LF Resonant Frequency to match it. This is the one of the few advanced parameters I ever adjust and I tweak it until I hear the bottom end "sympathize". For example, my favorite Mesa cab resonates around 110 Hz but most of the models default to 95 Hz so I usually adjust the LF Resonance to 110 Hz when using that cab. After I do that the Axe-Fx is indistinguishable from the real thing, IMHO.
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Emphasis added.


funny_polymath said:
I've always been more of an 'electronic guitarist' than most, so for me, that is the beauty of FRFR - I get the clarity I yearn for, and it DOES work in live settings for me.
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I agree. Whether or not your getting the "in the room" sound, if you're going direct you're getting a way more controllable and consistent signal that you would be by just sticking a mic in front of your amp. No one in the audience get's to hear your backline. Even the pickiest guitarist can't pick out the Axe vs a real amp when he's in the audience. In fact, he may even prefer the Axe.

The are also some things I really hated about a real speaker. Namely, that it only sounded good when standing in the right place. I had an amp stand that I thought would be great, until I realized how horrible my speaker sounded when pointed directly at me. It always made me feel like my tone was an illusion.
 
If you like your amp better then just use your amp. You will get a million posts with people trying to tell you that you're doing something wrong (and you might be) and that the Axe should work for you (and maybe it could)........and blah blah blah......but ultimately if the amp you already own gives you the sound that you want/need then just use that amp. Things don't always have to be so complicated, if you can't get to the sounds that you want to hear relatively easily with the Axe then it might not be the right piece of gear for you. There is no shame in that. If you can plug in to your amp and quickly get a sound that inspires you then that is all that matters. Use the amp and be happy.
 
Peter Hundley said:
If you like your amp better then just use your amp. You will get a million posts with people trying to tell you that you're doing something wrong (and you might be) and that the Axe should work for you (and maybe it could)........and blah blah blah......but ultimately if the amp you already own gives you the sound that you want/need then just use that amp. Things don't always have to be so complicated, if you can't get to the sounds that you want to hear relatively easily with the Axe then it might not be the right piece of gear for you. There is no shame in that. If you can plug in to your amp and quickly get a sound that inspires you then that is all that matters. Use the amp and be happy.
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This is true. I think some of us love the Axe-Fx so much that we want everyone else to love it as well. The thing is, if you love your tube amp, use it.
 
RDH said:
I had a personal battle with going FRFR,myself. What I realized after much comparison was (It doesn't feel like an amp in the room exactly,lots of variables! ) At first I ran my Ultra through a tube power amp and 2x12 THD cab with M75 Scumbacks and loved it !Totally worked , sound and feel of real amp to me,but when I put a mic in front of it and recorded or listened through FOH it wasn't even close to what I was hearing and feeling! Of course my listening position was totally different from the mic's
Then started comparing FRFR direct to micing cab ,FRFR blew it away,that's when I realized is it all about me,or about what I want to sound like to everyone else? Gotta choose the latter , I've also played through some incredible real amps,but gotta say when I listened back to recordings or from out front they never sounded close to what i heard on stage! So bottom line, is it only yourself you want to please? If not , a little time spent and reajusting you perspective will reap great rewards for you in the future when you get use to it!!!

Oh! also , the addition of the looper brought a huge realization to my attention! When I record a loop and play it back to tweak presets,things I thought I was hearing holding my guitar tweaking ,simply wasn,t there! Changes that seemed large weren't so noticable when I looped and played back, MUCH of the perception is Feel not the actual tone!!!!
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Great. Exactly my thoughts about it. Who cares how good a big marshall stack sounds right in front of it on stage. Nobody in the audience ever heard one like you do when you play. They are used to a different sound. All they know are sounds of mic'ed amps, and that's what counts. When you walk off the stage and listen to what comes out of the PA you get an impression of that. It might take time to get used to that other sound, but finally it seems better than before, because you then sound like what you have in your head from recordings. And you don't need to think anymore about how the sound translates in the mix after his way through the mic, you simply hear how it translates.
Too logical and boring? Yes, maybe, the magical aura of real tubes and so on, that's missing.
 
I think the biggest mistake some folks make is "tryiung to make it sound like my amp" . Well, it's not your amp. What Clark said above is very true-The music is for the people-be it live, recorded whatever.

I also agree with the "mental" part. I know the AxeFXi s NOT for everyone-but I really do not believe the sound and feel are the reasons.

It's nice we can discuss all of this rationally-It really boils down to the old "whatever works for you" (you being anyone, not the OP in particular.

recording or playing live-energy is energy. Sorry, I really do not see the true difference. Live there are folks on stage, crap all over the place, folks in the audience hopefully -you certainly do not hear yourself the same way-So I just don't buy it-If you like the axe for recording then you should be able to like it live. Once again, this is a general statement not aimed at anyone in particular. Just MHO of course

As stated above-If a Fender Champ from the 60's is what a player likles and wants to play thru that is just as cool as anything else, including the Axe-As it should be
 
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I'm not getting the "either or" vibe. Like it either has to sound good to you or the crowd. With all the options available in the Axe II, having both should'nt be a problem, at least that's what I've heard in the past. You know, do your "FRFR" tone for the crowd/recording (out 1) and the amp/cab tone for yourself (out 2) if you want it to sound/feel like a real amp/cab.
 
Three things:

1) think like a studio producer, not a guitarist (when tweaking patches)

2) be patient. Axe Fx is very different from everything else out there. High learning curve. One month is not enough time for a final decision.


3) in the end, Axe Fx isn't for everyone. Don't be offended at Cliff or anyone else if it's not for you.


Hope this helps. Happy Tweaking!
 
Doesn't cut it live?
I believe that this could be the Fletcher Mundson thing.
You're used to recording with your Axe? Tweaking in the bedroom are we?

I tweak the Axe at bedroom levels. Live I use a mid boost (+ 4db around 1k something I think).
Still when i play live i find my self constantly adjusting, usually raising mids.
My Mark V sound like pooo at bedroom levels and really great at gig volume (not so great that i wan't to keep it).
Make your Axe sound like sh*** at low volumes by boosting your mids and lowering lows and highs.
That'll cut live ^^
And... everything that everyone said before me.
 
Amen to the above. Patches for live gigs through a power amp and cab certainly need tweaking at the volume they are intended for use. I have tried to use patches that sound fabulous at bedroom FRFR level, and when cranked it's usually going to end up being a shrill affair unless you have a good ear for well balanced tone.
 
axecellent said:
Thanks Scott...I think I'm going to hang in there...and have one more go at it...:)
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Hey Axecellent,
You are doing the right thing. I played regular amps forever then heard the Line6 AX2 when it first came out and was blown away. I then went to the Boss GT8 then 10 and was discouraged a bit. Went back to the amp. I will say, nothin like a Les Paul straight into a Plexi. The one thing I noticed was how seperate the effects sounded with stomp boxes so I bought a G-System and that was a little better. The the HD-500 from line 6 came out and I pretty much didnt like that at all........Back to the amp. Then my buddy (Cragginshred on this forum) showed me the Axe Ultra......Done! Bought one and ran it through my Marshall with cab sims off. When the II came out I sold the Ultra and regreted ever since until I got my II about 3 weeks ago. Right now I run through 2 2x12 Legacy cabs with WGS speakers and it sounds pretty good.
This is a clip of the Ultra and I know the Axe II is waay superior. This was Axe/amp/cab on stage and Direct to FOH with cab sim on.
Sweet Home Short.wmv - YouTube

Hang in there, I know the tunnel is dark but there is a light at the end!
 
As mentioned above, I think running the QSC with Subs is your problem. You'd be much better off dropping the subs. I sell QSC and have spent a lot of time with them, you'll probably even find that having the ext. Sub switch engaged on the tops to kill off even more low end with give you a tone closer to what you want.
 
The way I've always seen it is, how can FRFR ever be a bad route to take? Even if you're using a tube amp and mic, you're still coming through the PA speakers and most likely a FR monitor on stage. So in the end you are essentially running FR live. And in my opinion, my tube amps I've had in the past all sounded like complete garbage and totally different than how they sounded at home (in front of me) as soon as that mic went in front of it and as soon as it came out of that PA.
Sometimes you have to go out into the crowd and hear what they hear and what the overall mix sounds like versus just what you hear in front of you. My amp always sounded amazing in front of me and then thin, weak and nasty at the gigs through a PA.

That's why I like the fr cabs. What you hear at home is pretty damn close to what you get live. It translates very sell. Sometimes even better if you show up to a gig with a kick ass PA setup.

But Then again everybody has their own taste When it comes to gear and live sound.

I hope it all works out for you.

Cheers.
 
Interesting posts on this topic for sure. Also interesting is that someone like Steve Vai does exactly the opposite of what you do. He's brought his Axe Fx II out as his main touring rig and adds a few additional pedals to his effects chain. I believe he uses the Axe through his effects loops (four cable config?) but I'm not positive on that. In the studio, he prefers to use the real thing and only does a few recordings using the Axe Fx. There is nothing like the real thing just yet perhaps, but using the Axe does hold the promise of lugging around less gear, that's for sure. Quicker setups, tear downs and all that. Only you know what's right for you, and its about art, which has no other right answer, except for what's right for you.
 
One of the biggest traps using an FRFR is the fletcher-munson thing.
Even when you know you have to crank the system up, to get the sounds right, it can go wrong. When you want to hear more details with a convential amp you just would crank up the volume, because there are no advanced pages and cabs and so on, not that much that you could do, you crank it up and it's good.
With an FRFR you could try instead to add a bit of highs with an eq, go to the advanced page and raise damp and presence, change to cabs with more highs, and some more settings, and you might forget the most simple and efficient thing: Don't forget to crank it up.
I guess that some disappointments are based on that. Just my guess.
 
I don't know about you, but when I was just a young wanker, the first time I took my Marshall JCM800 and cranked it up on stage I was in a tone full of bliss. I then took a few steps out from the stage in front of the PA system and just about decided to drill a 3/16 inch hole in my engineers ear drum to clear it out of all the "bad" that he had stuck there. It was vile, plastic, compressed garbage Ala-mode. Head-cheese doesn't even begin to describe the fowl odor of sound that I experienced that fine day in mid eighties. It sounded more like a synthesized kazoo from a cheap Chinese doorbell ringer. (No offense to the wonderful Chinese). Actually that PA was worth probably 250k? I was opening for a national act for the first time. It was depressing.

Anyway...be careful with any speaker that you ever use. Whether it's a guitar cabinet, PA speaker or a studio reference monitor. They all impart their own flavor onto your sound. This is much akin to a translator. If you want to express yourself in English and happened to have a German speaker, you might not like the way it translates to Swedish. Catch my drift? But don't blame the speaker or the listener. Try to find the right interpreter for what you are trying to say.
 
RDH said:
but when I put a mic in front of it and recorded or listened through FOH it wasn't even close to what I was hearing and feeling! Of course my listening position was totally different from the mic's
Then started comparing FRFR direct to micing cab ,FRFR blew it away,that's when I realized is it all about me,or about what I want to sound like to everyone else? Gotta choose the latter , I've also played through some incredible real amps,but gotta say when I listened back to recordings or from out front they never sounded close to what i heard on stage!
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I have experienced the same thing. You know, a lot of us started out with a combo amp that we were tweaking while bent over and reaching for the tone knobs. The sound was blowing into our shins or knee caps. We were tweaking the tone, so that the amp sounded right to our ears, when we stood up. Or some of us started out with a 4x12 half stack. Again, we turned the knobs until it sounded right to our ears, at the 6 foot high level, when the speakers were at shin height and the top speakers were at waist height! If we then put an SM57 on a mic stand and record that sound, it is going to sound completely different than what our ears at the 6 foot height, are perceiving.

Maybe along the way, we put a combo amp leaned back on a kickstand and could hear it pointed straight at our ears, like a floor wedge, and could tweak it to sound correct, "on-axis" with our ears, or perhaps we sat our 4x12 on top of another 4x12, or on top of the cabinet's flight case, again, to put the speakers on-axis with our ears.

I think the issue that the original poster is having, is that he is missing "moving some air" through a real amp, when he plays live.

I've been playing direct, and using in-ear monitors for about 5 years. I still get a thrill when I plug into my Marshall combo and "move some air" when I am at home. There's nothing like it - feeling the wood resonate and respond to the tubes and speakers.

Yet, I have the sound engineers at church telling me they have never had another player's tone and usability, across the spectrum of sounds, come close to mine. We have players mic'ing their Orange amps, Fenders, and Vox AC30's. Yet, my sound is praised. Direct - no bleed, never a mic that is vibrating out of it's place, or getting accidentally knocked, or having the cable yanked so that it is out of axis for an entire set, before anyone goes into the amp room to check it!

I love it.

As for "it is great in the studio, but not great live" I would say, if you are getting tones that sound good to you, using the amp/cab sims, and going direct out of the XLR's or the USB, then those should sound really good through a sound system too, in a live setting. Maybe you would need to bright or treble down the Global master, to suit the venue? The main system I play through is a little dark. So when I play live, I am using the same patches that sound great directly into my LOGIC Pro 9 DAW, and I boost a little of the highs, and cut a little of the lows - and they sound incredible in the house.
 
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