AX8 Volume Levels

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mpatton523

Member
Hi all,

I'm new to fractal audio and new to the forums as well. So far, very impressed with the unit! I just have a few questions about gain staging and setting volume levels correctly. Current rig is:

Strat > AX8 > EV Powered wedge/Front of house or Scarlet 2i2 (First gen) to Reaper. Most of my gigging is live theater and they take the line output thru the EV.

I watched the austinbuddy video about gain staging on youtube, but when I plug into the 2i2 it immediately clips in reaper. This is true of both my own presets and the fractal audio presets. Now, this is with the OUT1 cranked to 100%, like he states in the video. The 2i2 has a separate gain control that is turned all the way down, and yet it still clips. If I put the OUT1 at around 11'o clock, the fractal presets come in at about -12dB.

Now, if I run the same patch into the EV wedge at unity gain, it's totally fine. But, say I make a patch that comes in at -12db on the Scarlet 2i2, that same patch seems weak on the EV, and I find I'm cranking the master volume to almost max.

What is the best way for me to go about creating patches at a good volume? Should I crank the AX8 to its max, lower the master on the EV, and find some other way to lower the input if I'm recording? Or would it make more sense to keep the AX8 at a lower volume that doesn't clip the scarlett, and boost the gain/master volume on the EV?

Thanks so much!
 
Is the 1st gen 2i2 or 2nd one? Because 1st gen 2i2s have issue with clipping even with gain knob all the way down. It is well known issue if you do a google search with the phrase "2i2 clipping".
 
Hey, it's the 1st gen. Frustrating to know, I got it a few years ago...

Well, that in mind, is it better in live settings to use the AX8 cranked and the EV at a lower volume, or the other way around?
 
mpatton523 said:
Hey, it's the 1st gen. Frustrating to know, I got it a few years ago...

Well, that in mind, is it better in live settings to use the AX8 cranked and the EV at a lower volume, or the other way around?
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Usually yes. It keeps a lower 'noise floor'

The way that I do it is..... Start with the EV (or any powered speaker) turned down, turn the AX8 to 100%, gradually turn up the EV to as loud as you would actually (safely) use, remember or mark that setting and leave it there. This limits your entire Output knob range to only what you need. Now you can't accidentally turn up too loud and damage something (including your ears).
 
Meter your presets using the AX8 VU meter, last page of the main screen. Normal presets should average near the “center line” on that horizontal VU.

Done. Turn up the Out knob as needed for any gear after that. Out 1 is not designed to be turned up all the way all the time.
 
The clipping becomes less of an issue when you use a 1/4" plug rather than xlr.

I run my AX8 100% volume with 1/4", and around 25% volume with xlr.
 
mpatton523 said:
Strat > AX8 > EV Powered wedge/Front of house or Scarlet 2i2 (First gen) to Reaper. Most of my gigging is live theater and they take the line output thru the EV.
down, and yet it still clips. If I put the OUT1 at around 11'o clock, the fractal presets come in at about -12dB.
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Here’s a trick that might simplify things for you.

On your AX8, set OUT 2 (FX SEND) ECHO to OUTPUT 1. Now send Out1 to FOH and Out2 to your wedge. Now use the AX8’s OUT2 Level knob to set your wedge level without affecting your house feed.
 
Make sure the 2i2 is not set to instrument input

Edit: on the front below the gain knob for each channel, there's a toggle allowing you to switch between instrument and line. This should be set to line
 
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DanGuitarMan said:
The clipping becomes less of an issue when you use a 1/4" plug rather than xlr.

I run my AX8 100% volume with 1/4", and around 25% volume with xlr.
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Using the XLR means the AX8 is typically being plugged into a mic level input, the 1/4" is line level which is the reason for the disparity in volume. If the mixer allows the ability to choose mic or line level per channel, the XLR would yield the same volume as the 1/4".
 
chris said:
Out 1 is not designed to be turned up all the way all the time.
Click to expand...

I thought unity gain for the AX8 was with Output 1 all the way up. Is that not true? Ever since seeing that in AustinBuddy's gain staging video I've had Output 1 up all the way and have been regulating volume with either my floor monitor or interface. This is after leveling the presets with the VU meter of course.
 
RKF said:
I thought unity gain for the AX8 was with Output 1 all the way up. Is that not true? Ever since seeing that in AustinBuddy's gain staging video I've had Output 1 up all the way and have been regulating volume with either my floor monitor or interface. This is after leveling the presets with the VU meter of course.
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AustinBuddy’s video uses the term “unity gain,” but it’s not about unity gain at all. It’s about making your analog levels match the digital levels. If you’re using the AX8’s amp modeling, there’s an excellent chance that you’re not running at unity gain. In that case, unity gain is irrelevant.
 
Yes, all the way up will give you a proper line level (and I still think, it is the best setting, if the circumstances allow for it), but if the knob should always be all the way up, the knob probably shouldn't be there. It allows you to turn down to suit the situation, you are in (i.e. if the mixer (or sound engineer) cannot handle a line level).
 
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RKF said:
I thought unity gain for the AX8 was with Output 1 all the way up. Is that not true? Ever since seeing that in AustinBuddy's gain staging video I've had Output 1 up all the way and have been regulating volume with either my floor monitor or interface. This is after leveling the presets with the VU meter of course.
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i'm saying in practice, at the gigs, etc., the AX8 wasn't designed to have the Out 1 knob all the way up. if it was, it wouldn't have a knob.

the FX8 is designed for Unity Gain, and therefore has no Output Knob at all. so many people come here, see to "turn the knob up all the way" then get to their gigs and clip the mixer because the sound guy runs the mixer like he always does.

instead of having an argument with the sound guy, just use the Out 1 knob as a volume knob like it is.

if you want to run the knobs up all the way, that's fine. but many people - even after watching other people's videos - don't understand why they might want it all the way up, and it causes a lot of trouble. i get tons of DMs, there's lots of threads, and i believe support gets some tickets regarding exactly this.

"AX8 is clipping the mixer and sounds distorted."
where is your Out 1 knob set?
"it's all the way up like it's supposed to be."
it doesn't need to be there, just turn it down
"no someone on the forum said it has to be turned up all the way"
ok, just for a test, let's be silly. try turning it down
"wow that worked!"

this happens all the time. people don't understand what Unity Gain is. most mixers at gigs and audio interfaces when using XLR inputs are not ready for Unity Gain line level signals. so it causes problems. that's why i tell everyone to use the range of the Out 1 knob from 9 o clock to 3 o clock - and it works for everyone so far.

many Fractal users are coming from a guitar-only background. they don't know about mixers, levels, gain staging, etc. and why should they since the gear they used before - real amps - have channel and master volumes and that's it. distortion is GOOD for guitars. you can turn the knobs really anywhere and it won't have the same issues as mixers and regular audio processing.

so instead of dropping an unfamiliar term on them - unity gain - which sounds like something that is a rule of audio ("you must be at unity gain or you'll get sooooooo much noise!!!!"), i teach how to use it like how you'd use a guitar amp: use this range of the knob.

the AX8 output is so forgiving and so low noise. i'll run my AX8 at 9 o clock or less, and there's no noise at all. i think people read things here and think if they use unbalanced cables, or if they run the output at anything less than 100%, this large amount of noise and hum and bad things are just going to happen. people have told me that on support calls.

"i can't turn down the output knob"
why not?
"i read that there will be a ton of noise"
really? let's be silly and just try it as a test.
"ok.... hmm. there's no noise. wait. i thought there would be a ton of noise?!"

paraphrased from memory, but that's what was said with a few different people when i help them. same thing with unbalanced cables. but why would they design a protocol that has noise as loud as the desired signal? why would FAS say to use cables that do that? you know? it's lack of experience and fear of the unknown, and that's fine - we all have to learn at some point at our own pace.

forums and the internet are great. there is a ton of information out there. but the danger is that since it IS "in writing", many people take that as truth, and think that is the only way to go. "i need cables - hmm some guy on a forum said to get the most expensive cables i can find, because anything else causes noise. ok, i'll spend $100 on an instrument cable because i have to." that's just not true at all.

again, want to run the out 1 knob all the way up? that's totally fine. i do that for my setup if i'm running sound because i understand what's happening. but at a gig where someone else is running sound and already has my mixer channel set at 12 o clock gain before i even plug in? i'm starting at 9 o clock. there is NO additional noise. the mic preamp of the mixer isn't messing up my sound. the boogie man isn't going to get me while i play. it sounds great, the gig goes well, no arguments over audio happened, and everyone's happy.
 
With the number of these types of volume issue threads popping up, it would be nice to see those who have made comments that the 'correct', 'optimal', 'right' or 'proper' way to set OUT 1 is 100%, or full volume, retract or amend these statements/videos and clarify their comments as personal preference and not the only correct way to set up the AX8 in any environment.

There is nothing in the manual that states that any of the OUT knobs need to be at 100%. The only phrases I've seen is:

"Set the AX8 OUT 1 level knob as high as possible to lower the noise floor."

"For best signal-to-noise performance, set the AX8 OUT 1 and Out 2 level knobs as high as possible , and adjust the OUT 2 (FX SEND) BOOST PAD (p. 78) as high as possible without clipping out 2."

For my home setup and the gigs I play, OUT 1 set "as high as possible" is @ 50%. It must be remembered that the AX8 is not the only piece of volume or gain adjustable gear in the chain. There are interfaces, mixers, amps and monitors that we use that also have ideal gain settings or volume levels which ultimately means adjusting each part of the chain to achieve the best tone for each application. I've used the AX8 for over a year, last 5 months gigging, and have NEVER set OUT 1 at 100% for gigs or recording. I have switched between +4 dBu and -10 dBv on the OUT 1 Nominal Level depending upon the gig, but the OUT 1 knob on my AX8 is never far from the 12 o'clock position.

Those who have made the majority of these comments are highly regarded and respected users/forum members and I'm sure did not intend for their comments to be taken as gospel but it appears that many have been confused and frustrated as to why they have issues when setting up their AX8 'properly'..
 
chris said:
this happens all the time. people don't understand what Unity Gain is. most mixers at gigs and audio interfaces when using XLR inputs are not ready for Unity Gain line level signals. so it causes problems. that's why i tell everyone to use the range of the Out 1 knob from 9 o clock to 3 o clock - and it works for everyone so far.
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Couldn't have said it better Chris.
I just did an outdoor gig last night sending my OUT1 to a single Alto SXM112 wedge and to FOH using the THRU on the Alto.
Sounded great although I did have to increase my OUT1 from approx 12 o'clock to approx 2 o'clock for stage use.

No clipping.
Sound techs happy and tone was great. I do agree that OUT1 set to 100% never really worked for me. All a matter of opinion and how you create your preset or in my case alter others I downloaded paid or free.

A little over 2 years with my AX8 and it is just outstanding for the occasional gigs I do. With my Line 6 G90 wireless and the AX8 going to my powered speaker(s), I always have time to help out my other guitarist who takes forever with his rig and pedals.

Now if I only had the chops of some of you guys.....
 
Sonofiam said:
With the number of these types of volume issue threads popping up, it would be nice to see those who have made comments that the 'correct', 'optimal', 'right' or 'proper' way to set OUT 1 is 100%, or full volume, retract or amend these statements/videos and clarify their comments as personal preference and not the only correct way to set up the AX8 in any environment.
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It is a sad day for democracy, when people are asked to retract correct and true statements.

It is not really up for debate, what proper gain staging is.

However, (and I and others have said this numerous times) live sound always involves many compromises, and you should always cater for the situation. The best compromise is always the one that results in the best gig. Starting a huge argument with the sound tech before the gig even starts is usually not the best way.

Chris's experience has let him to the conclusion that most guitar player's don't understand this. So instead of giving the full explanation every time (with people misunderstanding it 70% of the times), he chooses to give an answer that will help people along and get the job done. I certainly see the value and sensibility in this. However, when people ask me, what "the best way" is. I will always tell them what the technically best way is. But I usually add the disclaimer/caveat that you should always do whatever works in the situation.

I can add a little anecdote from Big Mich Hughes (Metallica's legendary sound tech). They actually run their AxeFXs with fairly low output, because that allows him to crank and really hear the preamps in his mixing console. He knows that he is 'breaking the rules', but he makes an informed choice to do what he thinks sound best. Is that bad? Is it wrong? Of course not, but it is usually better to learn the theory and then make your choice rather than just ignoring the theory in the first place.
 
Smittefar said:
It is a sad day for democracy, when people are asked to retract correct and true statements.

It is not really up for debate, what proper gain staging is.

However, (and I and others have said this numerous times) live sound always involves many compromises, and you should always cater for the situation. The best compromise is always the one that results in the best gig. Starting a huge argument with the sound tech before the gig even starts is usually not the best way.

Chris's experience has let him to the conclusion that most guitar player's don't understand this. So instead of giving the full explanation every time (with people misunderstanding it 70% of the times), he chooses to give an answer that will help people along and get the job done. I certainly see the value and sensibility in this. However, when people ask me, what "the best way" is. I will always tell them what the technically best way is. But I usually add the disclaimer/caveat that you should always do whatever works in the situation.

I can add a little anecdote from Big Mich Hughes (Metallica's legendary sound tech). They actually run their AxeFXs with fairly low output, because that allows him to crank and really hear the preamps in his mixing console. He knows that he is 'breaking the rules', but he makes an informed choice to do what he thinks sound best. Is that bad? Is it wrong? Of course not, but it is usually better to learn the theory and then make your choice rather than just ignoring the theory in the first place.
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"A sad day for democracy"? A bit melodramatic but I suppose it should have been expected; opinion stated as truth then defended as fact. Ask five sound engineers that achieve a great sound and mix about gain staging and you will likely get five different approaches. There is no single method or philosophy that is the rule and stating that there is only one 'correct' way is only going to create confusion.

If setting the OUT 1 at 100% was the only "correct and true" way to set up the AX8, why are so many people having problems with volume? Why are others having any success with the AX8 when not following this procedure? I'm not saying it won't work and totally agree with giving users options. The 'issue' is a method being offered as the only way to do something when in fact it is simply not true.

Again, the reason for my comment is the apparent misunderstanding or misinterpretation of other user's explanations of how they use and setup their AX8. It is only frustrating those who post these threads when trying to properly set up their's. The only thing I have asked is to change from using terms like 'correct', 'proper', 'right way' from the tutorials or instructions and simply say 'here is how I do it'.

Lastly, if it were the 'correct' way it would be in the manual. I've already quoted what I've found the manual has to say about setting levels and they have nothing to do with tone, they are in reference to the noise floor and to set them "as high as possible". That doesn't always mean 'full volume'. I will add that when I first got the AX8, I did try it with the OUT 1 at 100% then 50% and noticed no difference in extraneous noise between the two. Stating something as the only way to do something that is not anywhere in the manual is counterproductive and of course leads to confusion.

You may interpret "as high as possible" to mean 100% and that's fine, you've clearly discovered this works for you. 50% is "as high as possible" for my applications but it doesn't mean I am setting it up wrong. We should be helping people get the most out of their gear, not frustrating them by making our opinions sound like the only way to do something when there are clearly other methods available.
 
Has anyone actually heard a difference in noise floor between 20% and 100%? There are so many other sources of noise (like the lead singer yapping, bar noise, your freakin guitar etc) that this seems like much to do about nothing. Take a deep breath and rock on :)
 
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