Asking for your TRUTH

[skintone1]

Everyone has a different gig so it makes sense what works for some won't work for everyone. It also depends on where you are as a musician. Are you an entertainer performing for a living? A bedroom player hitting up the Monday metal Jam? a gigging cover band getting % of sales?

Regardless of where you are, I think your stage volume should never be more than the acoustic volume of your drummer's kit. IMO If you really want it louder for personal reason's you should go In-Ears instead of destroying the stage mix for everyone else or, killing the first few rows of unlucky patrons getting the cone of deaf from your 4x12 cabinets, and making it impossible for the sound engineer to reinforce you to the audience...... Just my opinion after 27 years of learning about sound reinforcement.

I wanted to add to this as well. I have worked with hearing protection my entire life. In one of my previous bands, the drummer and bass player do not and have never used protection. These 2 guys together are beyond tone deaf and it's really quite sad. For example, The drummer thinks on many studio recordings that the kick drum is doing 4/4, hitting every beat, when the reality is it's the bass guitar while the drums are kick / snare / kick / snare, but he's so deaf he can't distinguish the difference, the result? people actually clear the dance floor cause no one can get into it, it's like double bass all night long....... Now the Bass player isn't as bad, but he consistently sings out of tune because of it. Guess what both their answers are to deal with it? PLAY HARDER, PLAY LOUDER, SMASSSSHH! The drummer breaks sticks left right and center he hits so hard just so he can hear himself, and the bass player is probably double the volume he should be at. I tapped the mains from our desk a few times and recorded the FOH mix and the results showed little to no drums or bass in the PA at all because they were already loud enough on stage. Now, in order for the guitars to hear ourselves, we had to turn up as loud as them, THEN our vocalist needs her monitor to be on top of all of us so she can hear herself...... I'm sure by now you see where this is heading. So now that everyone is so loud that sound engineer can't even create a FOH mix without foldback because we are only playing a 150 person room, we are going to sound like shit all night to the audience and venue, no matter how happy you "personally" are on stage.

anyways, I'm sure most of us have been there..... it's no fun.

I hear you man. Your post made me laugh.
I remember turning up to a band audition once with my 5 Watt valve amp, which is pretty loud. The band leader ( the drummer) said no way, and he plugged me into this 150W amp and cab, and put me in front of it. Before he starts to play , the drummer puts on these big headphones to cover his ears. Then I knew what was coming.
I was deafened through the entire audition, couldn't hear a thing of the other musicians, ears ringing for 2 days afterward.
Great fun...

 

[henryrobinett]

Everyone has a different gig so it makes sense what works for some won't work for everyone. It also depends on where you are as a musician. Are you an entertainer performing for a living? A bedroom player hitting up the Monday metal Jam? a gigging cover band getting % of sales?

Regardless of where you are, I think your stage volume should never be more than the acoustic volume of your drummer's kit. IMO If you really want it louder for personal reason's you should go In-Ears instead of destroying the stage mix for everyone else or, killing the first few rows of unlucky patrons getting the cone of deaf from your 4x12 cabinets, and making it impossible for the sound engineer to reinforce you to the audience...... Just my opinion after 27 years of learning about sound reinforcement.

Keep in mind that in my case, like I said, I play jazz, so the concept of what is loud or too loud is much, much quieter than rock venues. When I listen to live recordings taken from the audience it sounds perfectly balanced to me. I've been a professional guitarist for over 30 years, so I know a thing or two about it.

 

[mesafan]

Nor - I'll point out - would I want to. If I wanted a raw amp cab tone, I'd use a conventional power amp and conventional speaker and speaker cab. I take a lot of satisfaction from having a fully mix ready tone that inspires me and makes the mixing decisions and process greatly simplified out at FOH or at the studio desk.

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...t-modeling-mode-people-liking.html#post943743

When it comes to modeling modes in the Axe-FX II: I prefer it raw, rude and nasty - authentic. Bring it real
.

Interesting...

 

[FractalAudio]

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...t-modeling-mode-people-liking.html#post943743


Interesting...

You seem to be implying that this is incongruent. Why?

 

[Scott Peterson]

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...t-modeling-mode-people-liking.html#post943743


Interesting...

Two different things; apples and oranges. I like the amps raw/rude/real. I like the cabs professionally done mix ready. Best of both worlds.

I am assuming you realize the cabs and amps are different things; though from the posts you quoted and tried to make into some sort of implied statement... I'm guessing you did not? Am I reading you wrong here?

 

[Severed]

Keep in mind that in my case, like I said, I play jazz, so the concept of what is loud or too loud is much, much quieter than rock venues. When I listen to live recordings taken from the audience it sounds perfectly balanced to me. I've been a professional guitarist for over 30 years, so I know a thing or two about it.

I think the majority of us have been doing this a long time, and I too have about 30 years under my belt, however I spent the majority of my years learning how to produce and reinforce live sound.

Not saying anything against you but I've worked with many a pro that haven't the slightest idea what a mix is because they don't even do any of it, they are just performers that have a production company doing it for them.

Anyways, kind of getting way off topic here.

 

[clarky]

as the subject of stage volume popped up, here's a lil' tale..

several years ago I played an open air festival in Poland..
we arrived on the Friday night and were due to play the next night..
we're all sat in the hotel bar chilling out, and the festival was being played on the tv screens around the bar. So we're just kicking back, having a few beers and enjoying the bands..
the headline came on.. I can't recall who they were exactly, but it was one of the big ol' classic rock bands [could have been Budgie, Humble Pie or Molley Hatchet.. jeez.. I can't remember.. duhh ! !]
anyways, the guitarist has three Marshall stacks.. as in three heads and six 4x12 cabs..
I'm sat there watching thinking 'ahhh.. my rig may be a little small for this gig'
at the time I was running a VG-99 into a Marshall 8008 with a pair of 4x12 cabs.. that's 80W a side.
don't get me wrong, it's a seriously loud rig.. but looking at all that hardware on stage was making me a little nervous..
anyways.. Saturday afternoon is soundcheck time.. I build my rig and crank it..
usually I run it somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3, but it was a huge stage, and open air..
plus thinking what I saw the night before I thought I should push a little harder..
so I was closer to 3/4.. jeez it was loud.. like it hurt sort of loud..
the sound engineer was calling out to me to turn down cos "dude you're way way too fkn loud.. you got to back off.."
relieved, I dropped to my regular 'mid-way between 1/2 and 2/3' level.. and I get a smile and a thumbs up…

anyways.. after the sound check [which was great and normal] I climbed up into the sound engineers tower to talk to him..
I ask, "how come I was too loud when the fella last night had that Marshall wall??"
he replied - "he only used the stack on the left, the middle one was a backup, the third was for show.."
he asked me what I was running and I told him the specs of the 8008..
he smiled at me and was laughing as he was saying "so after seeing his rig, it never occurred to you that you actually run with more power than him on stage.."

moral of the story..
it don't really matter too much about the size of the venue, your live volume should be pretty consistent.. the PA and monitoring does the rest..
and this is true for me..
my live on-stage volume is pretty much the same wherever I play [unless the place is quite small where I may have to back off some]

the other moral..
why so much power if you never run it hard??
the answer is clarity and headroom..
have plenty of power, but never use it all so you sound big and fat but clean and crisp too

 

[BigD1977]

as the subject of stage volume popped up, here's a lil' tale..

several years ago I played an open air festival in Poland..
we arrived on the Friday night and were due to play the next night..
we're all sat in the hotel bar chilling out, and the festival was being played on the tv screens around the bar. So we're just kicking back, having a few beers and enjoying the bands..
the headline came on.. I can't recall who they were exactly, but it was one of the big ol' classic rock bands [could have been Budgie, Humble Pie or Molley Hatchet.. jeez.. I can't remember.. duhh ! !]
anyways, the guitarist has three Marshall stacks.. as in three heads and six 4x12 cabs..
I'm sat there watching thinking 'ahhh.. my rig may be a little small for this gig'
at the time I was running a VG-99 into a Marshall 8008 with a pair of 4x12 cabs.. that's 80W a side.
don't get me wrong, it's a seriously loud rig.. but looking at all that hardware on stage was making me a little nervous..
anyways.. Saturday afternoon is soundcheck time.. I build my rig and crank it..
usually I run it somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3, but it was a huge stage, and open air..
plus thinking what I saw the night before I thought I should push a little harder..
so I was closer to 3/4.. jeez it was loud.. like it hurt sort of loud..
the sound engineer was calling out to me to turn down cos "dude you're way way too fkn loud.. you got to back off.."
relieved, I dropped to my regular 'mid-way between 1/2 and 2/3' level.. and I get a smile and a thumbs up…

anyways.. after the sound check [which was great and normal] I climbed up into the sound engineers tower to talk to him..
I ask, "how come I was too loud when the fella last night had that Marshall wall??"
he replied - "he only used the stack on the left, the middle one was a backup, the third was for show.."
he asked me what I was running and I told him the specs of the 8008..
he smiled at me and was laughing as he was saying "so after seeing his rig, it never occurred to you that you actually run with more power than him on stage.."

moral of the story..
it don't really matter too much about the size of the venue, your live volume should be pretty consistent.. the PA and monitoring does the rest..
and this is true for me..
my live on-stage volume is pretty much the same wherever I play [unless the place is quite small where I may have to back off some]

the other moral..
why so much power if you never run it hard??
the answer is clarity and headroom..
have plenty of power, but never use it all so you sound big and fat but clean and crisp too

I remember seeing Lamb Of God's Killadelphia where the dummy cabs didn't even have cones in them! I'm also reminded of the last time I saw Slayer where the cabs were rigged like upside down crosses on each side of the stage, and I thought, 'Thank christ they don't have to mic every cab!'.

 

[clarky]

haaa... I remember that Slayer gig...
I saw that one in London

 

[henryrobinett]

I think the majority of us have been doing this a long time, and I too have about 30 years under my belt, however I spent the majority of my years learning how to produce and reinforce live sound.

Not saying anything against you but I've worked with many a pro that haven't the slightest idea what a mix is because they don't even do any of it, they are just performers that have a production company doing it for them.

Anyways, kind of getting way off topic here.

Yeah well, I'm an audio engineer as well. I do some sound reenforcement too. My sound is generally a little too loud for the guys on stage, but it's mixed well coming off the stage. I do know what a mix is, thank you very much.

 

[Boogie291]

This what I was suggesting in the wish list forum an AXE FX II COMBO tweak by the factory. All those wasted hours and hours of tweaking can be avoided.

 

[clarky]

I've worked with many a pro that haven't the slightest idea what a mix is because they don't even do any of it, they are just performers that have a production company doing it for them.

for a long time, this was me…
I just showed up and made guitar noises..

more switched on to this sort of thing now though.. a matter of having to be..

 

[zenaxe]

This what I was suggesting in the wish list forum an AXE FX II COMBO tweak by the factory. All those wasted hours and hours of tweaking can be avoided.

Those hours tweaking weren't wasted. You were learning.

 

[toolfanem]

Those hours tweaking weren't wasted. You were learning.

This. So much this

 

[Severed]

for a long time, this was me…
I just showed up and made guitar noises..

more switched on to this sort of thing now though.. a matter of having to be..

It's a shame more players don't share your realistic openness and instead get snooty and defensive on the topic.

We all started somewhere, and even after 3 decades I learn new stuff everyday, I may not like or agree with everything, and sometimes a different approach takes a bit to sink in, but at the end of the day I always try to have an open mind.

 

[GreatGreen]

I remember seeing Lamb Of God's Killadelphia where the dummy cabs didn't even have cones in them! I'm also reminded of the last time I saw Slayer where the cabs were rigged like upside down crosses on each side of the stage, and I thought, 'Thank christ they don't have to mic every cab!'.

It's more common than you might think.

 

[toolfanem]

It's more common than you might think.

The second picture tells almost the entire story...

Engl - Check
Backup Engl - Check
Iso-cab or side aiming cab - (well I cant actually see it but Im sure its there somewhere so) Check

All those big amp and cab stacks were only practical in the 80's, when people could afford "luxury" items like mountains of cocaine and limos with hot tubs in the back

 

[BigD1977]

It's more common than you might think.

I remember engineering a gig about fifteen years ago where the guitarist was using a Marshall combo and every effort to get him to turn down was useless. The volume was so loud that it was interfering with the vocal mics and feedbacking through the monitors, despite eqing and gating, and if I put any of his guitar through the FOH it would deluge everything else. Multiple explanations of this to him would yield him turning down for about 2 minutes before he turned back up, claiming it wasn't satisfying to play at the lower volume. He wasn't a younger guy either, would have been in his early 40's.

So, they played the gig with terrible FOH sound. The vocals were inaudible, the leads were too loud, and the complaints from the audience said as much. The guitarist left the stage thinking they'd played a great gig, even though his guitars were louder than the drums. He was the only one that thought that.

Given that this was a single combo I would hate to think what the hearing damage would be if players used a full stack turned up every night. I look at huge walls of cabs and my first thought is penis envy tbh!

I like Devin Townsends approach. Straight to FOH and listen through the monitors.

IMHO it's far better to get your mix right at soundcheck (if you manage to get one) and leave it to the engineer, because they have more of an idea of what will work FOH than the guitarist does. I would rather be dissatisfied with my playing and have great FOH sound than have a great personal sound and crap FOH.

Oh, another small note about the miced sound. When John Petrucci plays, he has his cabs backstage miced and then monitors, so he doesn't need the unmiced sound to play well. I can't remember if Dream Theater use in ears or floor monitors though, but if it's good enough for him........

 

[UnsungHeroGuitars]

I like Devin Townsends approach. Straight to FOH and listen through the monitors.

IMHO it's far better to get your mix right at soundcheck (if you manage to get one) and leave it to the engineer, because they have more of an idea of what will work FOH than the guitarist does. I would rather be dissatisfied with my playing and have great FOH sound than have a great personal sound and crap FOH.

Yep - have run like that for many, many years now :encouragement:

 

[Edrod]

A good friend of mine did not know about dummy cabs. He's a passionate music listener and he was quite heart broken when I sent this the pictures above haha