Any way to boost the input?

[Tommy Tempest]

To the OP, I have a PRS (not SE, in case yours is), and my input A/D level is at 80%. It barely tickles the red. With that said, I never touch my input 1 block, except for the noise gate adjustment. Most of my presets that have slight breakup to full out distortion have the gain on the amp over 6 and a drive block, usually set to a TS. I keep my drive low and boost the drive block gain to the amp, to boost the input and not color the amp too much. I generally go through a 4 x 12 cab block. I can get as much breakup as I need, too much some times. My suggestion is switch through the factory presets, until you find one that has a sound and feel you like. Then you can see what settings were used for each block, to achieve the tone and breakup of that preset.
Oh and just in case, there are 4 knobs on the front for output. You can turn them where ever you want. My output 1 is at about 70%, giving me good yellow, no red. My output 2 (FOH) is at 50%, because 70% is way to high for the input to a console. At 50% my console gain for the guitar is around 5.

 

[Grathan]

Guys thanks for the clarifications. Still trying to boost input by way of the input block. I see this in the manual

The Axe-Fx III allows remote control of the volume at all input and output blocks. If you have a second pedal, or if you want to use one pedal for global volume instead of expression, follow the instructions below to set it up.
Adjusting Input volume affects gain/distortion and the behavior of level-dependent blocks like the compressor or gate. Adjusting Output volume does not affect level-dependent blocks, but scales everything you hear including effect tails. For all other volume options, you can insert a Volume block anywhere in your preset and control it with a pedal as described in “Modifiers” on p. 136.
First ensure that you have an expression pedal connected and ready to use. Then:
1.
From the Home page, open SETUP: MIDI/Remote: Other.
2.
NAV to the entry for the volume you want to control: Input 1, 2, 3, or 4, or Output 1, 2, 3, or 4.
3.
Turn the A or VALUE knob to assign a controller to your selected entry.
ƒƒ
Select “PEDAL 1 or PEDAL 2” for the onboard Expression jacks
ƒƒ
Select “FC__ PEDAL __” for a pedal connected via an FC series controller.
ƒƒ
Select a number if your pedal is transmitting a MIDI CC#. For example, by default, the Fractal Audio Systems MFC-101 transmits CC#11 for XP1 and CC#16 for XP2.
4.
Test and EXIT when finished.

This sounds like i can just hook an expression pedal up and assign output of input block? not sure I am finding the right option in the other menu though, at least one that affects gain the way adjusting the output of the input block does manually. For example pushing the pedal on Output One Volume or Input One Volume does not affect the layout meters of any block, but tweaking the output of the input block cranks all the layout grid meters.

 

[unix-guy]

I've asked a couple times why you're trying to use the Input block to do this, and suggested alternate (and much more common) ways...

I'm out.

 

[Tommy Tempest]

Guys thanks for the clarifications. Still trying to boost input by way of the input block. I see this in the manual


This sounds like i can just hook an expression pedal up and assign output of input block? not sure I am finding the right option in the other menu though, at least one that affects gain the way adjusting the output of the input block does manually. For example pushing the pedal on Output One Volume or Input One Volume does not affect the layout meters of any block, but tweaking the output of the input block cranks all the layout grid meters.

As this states in the manual: "Adjusting Input volume affects gain/distortion and the behavior of level-dependent blocks like the compressor or gate." So you may end up clipping, because unity gain would be out the window.
I don't quite understand why you are having a volume issue? Maybe post your preset, as asked before, and also tell us what level your output knobs are on.

 

[zenaxe]

I've asked a couple times why you're trying to use the Input block to do this, and suggested alternate (and much more common) ways...

I'm out.

Yes, I don’t get why the OP seems to literally be ignoring all responses from more experienced folks and just sort of weirdly fixating on one (probably unproductive) thing... it’s like, if you have no intention of listening to input, wtf are you asking for help for?

 

[maxdown]

Based on earlier information provided above it sounds like the OP is perhaps making the jump from a Standard to an AxeFX III?

If this is the case then it's worth bearing in mind that the removal of the Standard/Ultra Instrument Input level knobs on the Axe FX II caused some confusion at the time with upgraders ...... but it's now a double whammy for the OP as he must get his head round that and the new grid Input blocks on the III.

So reading between the lines I'm guessing the OP was used to adjusting instrument levels when using different output guitars by just manually tweaking the Standard's Input knob on the fly and using the leds to tickle the red.

OP - the Instrument Input level is now a 'set and forget' parameter in the I/O menu - do what it says in the manual for 'Setting Levels' for Input 1 and use your hottest output guitar and get those red leds to 'tickle' when you hit the strings hard. That's all that's needed. Do not worry that your lowest output guitar does not come near to the red on the input leds ... everything is cool ... it's still converting to a perfectly acceptable internal digital signal.

All further boosting of signal after that is done via blocks in the grid.

I know the manual states that the Input 1, 2, 3 and 4 blocks can have their levels adjusted via a controller ..... but doing that would generally be to get the simulated effect of slamming extra signal at an FX pedal next in line to it that might react to it in some desired specific way ... the example quoted being a compressor or gate. It's probably something 99% of us wouldn't feel the need to do in the real world.

But if that's the specific effect you are seeking then yes you can keep pursuing the solution of setting up a modifier on the Input 1 block output level parameter and control it via a switch or expression pedal. Although you'd possibly need to also do something about controlling any increase in output level in the FX block you've just boosted the input at the same time to try and keep the rest of the grid blocks levels from cascading everything to a point where signal clipping could occur. IE It gets complicated!

As you've indicated earlier that you can get the input 1 block level boost working by manually tweaking but not via a pedal it sounds like you've not set up the modifier and expression pedal to do that so far .... so maybe that's the area you need to study.

BUT ......

What others here are suggesting are more normal,controllable and easier to understand/tweak methods to add some extra gain to some point in your signal chain ...... and being a Fractal there are of course quite a few options! They all worked fine in the AxeFX 2 series and still would be the normal way to do things in the III

I personally just treat the grid in the same way I'd set up the real world equivalent ..... well at least up until the cab block .... if you've FX after it then I think of those as post FX added at a mixing console.

The easiest way to get a simple clean boost in my opinion is just place a Filter block at a position in the grid of your choosing, either directly after your Input 1 block or maybe after all your 'front of amp' FX blocks and just before the amp block etc etc. Then this Filter block's default parameters can be left as is and the only one you'd want to modify via a switch or expression pedal would be the Output level.

Other places to boost could be within the amp block parameters - Input trim being quite nice to subtly adjust between different guitars' outputs .... but lots of other places too ... even without going into the realms of possibilities of scenes etc.

If you've made the jump from a Standard to a AFX III ....... it's a HUGE change. If that's the case I'd recommend you mention that fact when asking for help here because it puts a different slant on the whole thing ...... in some ways I'd imagine it's probably more difficult to upgrade your mindset from a Std to a 3 than it would be to be a completely new customer to an AxeFX who 'just' has to learn the whole concept from scratch.

If however you haven't come from a Standard to a III ..... then just set that I/O input level and then do as you're bloody told or we'll find you and kill you!

Kidding of course ...... keep asking the questions ... makes little difference to me ... I'm still just an AxeFX 2 user .... lol

 

[FractalAudio]

Turn up the Drive in the amp block. Done.

 

[jlynnb1]

Yes, I don’t get why the OP seems to literally be ignoring all responses from more experienced folks and just sort of weirdly fixating on one (probably unproductive) thing... it’s like, if you have no intention of listening to input, wtf are you asking for help for?

exactly...asks a question then ignores all help. why even bother...

 

[Grathan]

Guys I am sorry my questions seem focused. i haven't completely ignored things suggested. I get a half hour a day to google things like "gain staging" And "input trim" and "breakup" all while I am on a 15 day trial with the axefx3.

Sure we can talk about "boosting the input drive", but first I would have to ask exactly what the input drive is? we could talk about boosting blocks before the amp, we could talk about boosting the gain of the amp. Yeah that is what I am after, a boost of volume. I am just asking if there was a simple way to do that. I'd like to avoid altering every single patch in the axefx and also every patch I download in the future to accommodate a special volume block or gain adjustment when one already exists in every single patch! The input block. The section of manual I quoted sounded like it was possible to simply use an expression pedal to control this volume adjustment. Apparently this isn't the case??? that's fine. I can use a modifier and linked global block as someone suggested earlier. That's fine. I'll spend the next week modifying hundreds of patches to use a modifier.


Maxdown, your saying that the input block volume adjustment only affects the a single subsequent effect in the grid when connected to a pedal and not ALL of the subsequent effects?

I know the manual states that the Input 1, 2, 3 and 4 blocks can have their levels adjusted via a controller ..... but doing that would generally be to get the simulated effect of slamming extra signal at an FX pedal next in line to it that might react to it in some desired specific way ... the example quoted being a compressor or gate. It's probably something 99% of us wouldn't feel the need to do in the real world.

I understand most people wouldn't do this, I was just looking for a quick fix (still am if it would work). I really enjoy tweaking this input block volume knob. It really brings to life reverb and chorus and gain. It may not be right to boost the signal in such a way, but if it was a simple option, I wanted to pursue it. thanks for looking.


Fractals I did miss your post, I am on +4db output, I don't see the post above you reference though.

 

[unix-guy]

Guys I am sorry my questions seem focused. i haven't completely ignored things suggested. I get a half hour a day to google things like "gain staging" And "input trim" and "breakup" all while I am on a 15 day trial with the axefx3.

Sure we can talk about "boosting the input drive", but first I would have to ask exactly what the input drive is? we could talk about boosting blocks before the amp, we could talk about boosting the gain of the amp. Yeah that is what I am after, a boost of volume. I am just asking if there was a simple way to do that. I'd like to avoid altering every single patch in the axefx and also every patch I download in the future to accommodate a special volume block or gain adjustment when one already exists in every single patch! The input block. The section of manual I quoted sounded like it was possible to simply use an expression pedal to control this volume adjustment. Apparently this isn't the case??? that's fine. I can use a modifier and linked global block as someone suggested earlier. That's fine. I'll spend the next week modifying hundreds of patches to use a modifier.


Maxdown, your saying that the input block volume adjustment only affects the a single subsequent effect in the grid when connected to a pedal and not ALL of the subsequent effects?

I understand most people wouldn't do this, I was just looking for a quick fix (still am if it would work). I really enjoy tweaking this input block volume knob. It really brings to life reverb and chorus and gain. It may not be right to boost the signal in such a way, but if it was a simple option, I wanted to pursue it. thanks for looking.


Fractals I did miss your post, I am on +4db output, I don't see the post above you reference though.

There is NO way to alter the signal level inside a preset without altering the preset.

Factory presets are a starting point. Alter them as needed for your tastes.

On the Axe Fx II there is the global Amp Gain that could be used but that doesn't exist on Axe Fx III.

 

[jlynnb1]

Guys I am sorry my questions seem focused. i haven't completely ignored things suggested. I get a half hour a day to google things like "gain staging" And "input trim" and "breakup" all while I am on a 15 day trial with the axefx3.

Sure we can talk about "boosting the input drive", but first I would have to ask exactly what the input drive is? we could talk about boosting blocks before the amp, we could talk about boosting the gain of the amp. Yeah that is what I am after, a boost of volume. I am just asking if there was a simple way to do that. I'd like to avoid altering every single patch in the axefx and also every patch I download in the future to accommodate a special volume block or gain adjustment when one already exists in every single patch! The input block. The section of manual I quoted sounded like it was possible to simply use an expression pedal to control this volume adjustment. Apparently this isn't the case??? that's fine. I can use a modifier and linked global block as someone suggested earlier. That's fine. I'll spend the next week modifying hundreds of patches to use a modifier.


Maxdown, your saying that the input block volume adjustment only affects the a single subsequent effect in the grid when connected to a pedal and not ALL of the subsequent effects?

I understand most people wouldn't do this, I was just looking for a quick fix (still am if it would work). I really enjoy tweaking this input block volume knob. It really brings to life reverb and chorus and gain. It may not be right to boost the signal in such a way, but if it was a simple option, I wanted to pursue it. thanks for looking.


Fractals I did miss your post, I am on +4db output, I don't see the post above you reference though.

the problem is it doesn't seem like you understand the terminology of the unit, which is causing you to try things to achieve "breakup" that aren't meant to do that. You've given no info on the amps youre trying, the tone youre going for...nothing. We are going to talk in circles until we can speak the same language.

 

[666was999]

The question wasn't if there is way to alter the input in every single preset. The question was if there is a way outside.

Answer: No it isn't. You can't easily change guitars without beiing prepared. There's some ways to do it, but it isn't already in there. Big gap in the UI.
When you don't want to touch presets, use outboard gear to do it. Stomp EQs with volume/gain can help.

 

[maxdown]

Maxdown, your saying that the input block volume adjustment only affects the a single subsequent effect in the grid when connected to a pedal and not ALL of the subsequent effects?

No. It will affect all subsequent blocks because it will increase your input level on them .... but the point being that it's an unusual choice of block to choose to boost level on when what you have implied is just a desire to alter the gain of your amp block (as in add more 'hair' to it). If you are planning using an expression pedal to do this and increase gain incrementally as you toe down then the simplest and most logical place to attach a modifier to is the Input Gain parameter in the amp block.

The quote I paraphrased from the Manual implies that 'sometimes' people would want to increase the signal level hitting a specific FX type next in line to the Input 1 block ..... but I think there's a bit of info missing in that you might have to simultaneously lower the signal again at some point after too.

To boost the Input 1 block's output is the equivalent of having some sort of clean boost circuit built into your guitar ... if that's what you are looking for then work away ..... but bear in mind that it will increase the level hitting every non-bypassed block's input before and after the amp block too - which might introduce strangeness and very likely unwanted noise generated by 'overdriving' the FX blocks in front of the amp Generally I want to keep things as quiet as possible in terms of signal/noise ratio before the amp block gets to do it's thing and does what it says on the tin - amplifies the signal.

 

[Grathan]

Hey guys, just looking at the notes for 1.16 firmware I see this under 1.15

Added Output 1 Volume Increment and Output 1 Volume Decrement CC assignments. When the CC assigned to Volume Increment/Decrement is received the scene volume for Output 1 is incremented or decremented by 1 dB and the preset automatically saved.

I really don't understand what a CC assignment or scene volume is, but it sounds like it boosts the input block output? Can I hook a expression pedal to this CC somehow? thanks

 

[unix-guy]

Hey guys, just looking at the notes for 1.16 firmware I see this under 1.15


I really don't understand what a CC assignment or scene volume is, but it sounds like it boosts the input block output? Can I hook a expression pedal to this CC somehow? thanks

It says explicitly "Output block", not Input block.

 

[chris]

it sounds like it boosts the input block output? Can I hook a expression pedal to this CC somehow? thanks

"Added Output 1 Volume Increment and ... Decrement CC assignments."

it says "Output" not Input. this is the Output block, not the Input output.

this allows the Output 1 Block to be increased or decreased using a button on a midi controller.

I maxed the global setup input for input 1 and still find myself boosting output on the Input Block at least 5db on every preset just to get a little breakup going on.

i haven't read the entire thread, but raising the output level of the Input block isn't the way to get break up on an amp. you wouldn't really do that with real gear, assuming you can indefinitely increase the output of your guitar which is the most congruent comparison.

there are many, many ways to get breakup from an amp. the first is to choose an appropriate amp. make sure the amp itself can do that.

next is to simply increase the Amp Gain. that's probably the #1 way that everyone gets "breakup" from any amp, real or modeled. from there you can add a drive pedal of various types, or increase the Input Trim in the amp block (increasing gain without changing tone). and there's still many more ways to do this.

--
i see that the original issue is dealing with different guitars. comparing to the Axe Standard and the physical Input knob, i can see how this is different and possibly confusing.

however, the Input stage has been different since 2011 and the Axe-Fx II. it's now a digital setting that adjusts the Signal to Noise ratio, as has been explained a few times earlier in the thread.

i think first the comparison between how the Standard worked vs the how the Axe3 works needs to be understood - they are not the same.

as far as setting the Instrument Input volume in the SETUP menu on the Axe3, set it for your highest guitar and leave it there. that's the recommended way. as mentioned, changing this specific setting does NOT increase gain to the grid/layout/amp. it's a signal to noise ratio. it is different than how the Axe Standard worked.

from there, most people use different presets for different guitars so you can optimize whatever you want. i know some who instead use a physical volume/boost pedal of some sort before the Axe to boost the output of their lower output guitars.

the Axe-Fx III is designed to use Presets. a real amp, you could say, is more of a "global" device, as the settings are just "there" and you change what you need. but you don't change amps with a real amp like you do with the Axe, and if you do change amps, you change Presets to the settings you have previously set.

it's been said that at some point the home screen of the Axe3 will have a "performance mode" or something that has assignable controls right on the main screen. when this does happen, if you do only use 1 preset during a performance, you can set one of those knobs to Amp Gain or something similar and turn that when you change guitars - this is exactly what you'd do on a real amp.

until then, the best solution really is to have presets for each guitar so you can adjust everything exactly how you want per guitar.

 

[Grathan]

Darn, I completely missed it said Output Block, and not output of Input block
I really don't think amp gain and input gain are the same sonically to my ears. Though perhaps the only amps that I have tried to boost input drive are ones where input block boost had no effect.
Just as a test I boosted instrument input to 100%, it had a slight affect over %50, but still wasn't as pleasing as 5db of input output block increase in terms of gain, increasing the amp Input drive did increase gain, but it sounded more "flubby".



I've made an audio sample, it is tough to discern, but it does show the flubby imho.
first 5 seconds is normal patch #27 CA3+ scene 3 intrument level %50
next 3 seconds is instrument level %100
next 11-15 seconds is amp input drive increased from 5 to 10 (instrument back to %50)(this is the flubby part)
last is 15-20 seconds with input block output +5db (instrument still at %50)

The input block boost doesn't come across in the recording quite as I had hoped, but listening while playing, it seems markedly more pleasing than any other method of boost.

 

[chris]

Darn, I completely missed it said Output Block, and not output of Input block
I really don't think amp gain and input gain are the same sonically to my ears. Though perhaps the only amps that I have tried to boost input drive are ones where input boost had no effect.
Just as a test I boosted instrument input to 100%, it had a slight affect over %50, but still wasn't as pleasing as 5db of input output block increase in terms of gain, increasing the amp Input drive did increase gain, but it sounded more "flubby".



I've made an audio sample, it is tough to discern, but it does show the flubby imho.
first 5 seconds is normal patch #27 CA3+ scene 3 intrument level %50
next 3 seconds is instrument level %100
next 11-15 seconds is amp input drive increased from 5 to 10 (instrument back to %50)(this is the flubby part)
last is 15-20 seconds with input block output +5db (instrument still at %50)

The input block boost doesn't come across in the recording quite as I had hoped, but listening while playing, it seems markedly more pleasing than any other method of boost.

if you boost the Instrument Level to get gain and breakup, you are losing the clean input signal. boosting the instrument level in Setup is NOT the way to get more gain. please don't do this - it's one of the few "rules" that i will stand by. the input to the grid should be a clean signal as this is digital audio. by boosting here, you are ruining the rest of the experience.

the flub you are experiencing is exactly how real amps work. many times you have to reduce the Bass control to get rid of this flub. the basic Tone controls (Bass Mid Treb) are usually part of the gain structure, so these work in tandem with the Input Gain control to get the tone you want. this is nothing new, and sort of a "tube amp" basic behavior.

the reason you are enjoying the Input Block boost method is because that is a trick that is used often for more gain - typically with a Drive pedal like the DS1 or TS808. this method tends to increase gain but by slamming the input of the Amp (real or modeled), and that tends to naturally reduce the low end going into (and out of) the amp.

using the Input block to send more level to the amp isn't a bad idea, but it's not how many people do it.

so again, changing the Input Gain of an amp can change the tone (making it flubby for example), so this isn't something going wrong at all. you might experiment instead with a Drive block or even a Filter block for your additional boost, rather than changing the Input block.

put a Filter block right after your Input block. set the LEVEL (not gain) in the Filter block to something like +5. then turn it off and on, adjusting that Level till it is what you want. this should do the same thing that your Input block settings are doing, but is easier to turn on and off and visually see if it's engaged.

 

[Grathan]

Thanks, I was just thinking there was a simple way to boost favorably for one guitar without editing every preset. I might try requesting a yellow circle (exp pedal thingee) for input block output in the axe3 wishlist forum or does that seem dumb because not many people boost that way?

 

[chris]

Thanks, I was just thinking there was a simple way to boost favorably for one guitar without editing every preset. I might try requesting a yellow circle (exp pedal thingee) for input block output in the axe3 wishlist forum or does that seem dumb because not many people boost that way?

you can wish for whatever you want - i'm sure others would want that too, but yeah i don't think that's a popular way of doing that.

as i mentioned, the Axe3 and other similar products these days typically function on "per preset" usage, and don't have too many "global" adjustments. think repeatability, backup/restore ease, etc. i believe that physical knob Input level of the Standard and Ultra was a common support issue back then - many people would have the input level set incorrectly, or bump it during a show, and people would ask why presets don't sound good. so back in 2011 with the Axe2, this input setting procedure was changed completely.

back then, i remember people missing the ease of adjusting that Input level for different guitars. so you aren't alone in that aspect for sure. but again, it's just a big difference in approach among devices.

i personally don't think that having a Modifier and expression pedal on the Output of the Input block is any easier than kicking on a Filter block like i mentioned. you can even have that Filter Level on an Expression Pedal if you need that variable range, rather than a simple on/off with a button. just be sure to set your Min and Max range in the Modifier screen (we can help you with that later if you wish to go that route).

the Filter block exists for situations just like this actually. you aren't necessarily "filtering" anything, but there are 4 blocks available. please try that suggestion first with the on/off that i described above. i think this will do what you need.