Any tentative idea on when the AxeFx IV and the subsequent FM line updates are coming? (Looking to buy the FM3 but not sure if I should wait)

[AlexMania]

Here is a Cooper Carter video from a year ago doing a comparison of the power of the three units in relation to his live preset.

 

[Xcdchdchjjf]

Thanks for the good answers.

Couple of points:
Reselling will be hard for me considering where I live where there arent many guitar players to begin with, and even fewer whod consider a 1000$ device, although the Fractal name might have a stronger pull.



Im actually trying to save floor space as I need it for race sim pedals and/or a subwoofer. On the desk it will take the place of the Mooer and will have a more or less equal footprint, so no worries there.

I sold my FM3 on reverb and it sold within a half hour of posting.

So you should have no problem selling.

I lost $1-200 bucks on the sale.

 

[MrCrossroads83]

The Axe FX 3 and the FM 3 are constantly getting better by firmware updates with even new ampmodeling (Cygnus 1 was already killer and Cygnus 2 will raise it up to a new level I guess) and as somebody already wrote: the units will work and they have reached a level of realism that the ampmodeling sounds AND feels like real tube amp heaven so what could you expect from a new unit? The only thing that I would like would be a FM 3 with more processing power and the ability to have dual amp sounds. And yes....you could sell AXE FX or FM 3 for a good price on the used market if there would be any new Fractal Audio and until that day you already had a lot of fun with the actual generation of units. A Fractal unit is not a smartphone

 

[Will Chen]

Im sure everybody hates buying a thing then seeing the next gen announced a couple of months later.

FWIW...that kinda happened with me and the AX8. The thing is, Fractal stuff holds it's value pretty well. I sold my AX8 right when the FM3 was announced as I wanted to get maximum value for it but as is typically with a new Fractal device there were some initial availability issues (that scarcity is part of what keeps prices high). I decided to wait until I could get a B-Stock FM3 and I think it was around a year after selling the AX8 before I actually got an FM3. I happened to look and used AX8's were still selling within $200 of what I sold mine for. Next time I decide to upgrade, I'll just hold onto the FM3 until I'm ready to make the move.

 

[DougB415]

FM3 for the desk + FC6 for the floor. I wouldn't wait much longer, they might sell out before the end of the month.

 

[MrCrossroads83]

FWIW...that kinda happened with me and the AX8. The thing is, Fractal stuff holds it's value pretty well. I sold my AX8 right when the FM3 was announced as I wanted to get maximum value for it but as is typically with a new Fractal device there were some initial availability issues (that scarcity is part of what keeps prices high). I decided to wait until I could get a B-Stock FM3 and I think it was around a year after selling the AX8 before I actually got an FM3. I happened to look and used AX8's were still selling within $200 of what I sold mine for. Next time I decide to upgrade, I'll just hold onto the FM3 until I'm ready to make the move.

Same with me Sold my AX 8 for a good price in May 2019 than expecting the FM 3 a few weeks later in the same year but you all know that it was 2020 when it finally was available but you know what? It was worth every single day of waiting

 

[laxu]

However, with AF3 being almost 5 years old Im fearing the next gen is around the corner. Should I wait until NAMM? Have there been any news/rumors?

Fractal doesn't participate in NAMM so any product announcements don't coincide with that.

The following is all speculation.

Fractal basically just got the FM9 out this year and they have said to be developing a new cab sim system similar to what you find on Helix 3.5 and Quad Cortex. It won't sound any better than what is available at the moment, will be just more intuitive to use. But that points to continued development on the existing platform rather than replacing it with a new product.

Fractal most likely won't release a new product in the next 2-3 years. Line6, who are a much bigger company backed by Yamaha, have had some of their people state on other forums not to expect a Helix successor for a couple of years at least. Both companies are surely at minimum designing if not developing their next gen products but you should not expect them anytime soon.

I mention Line6 because like Fractal, they are dependent on the available digital signal processors on the market. Fractal uses a mix of Texas Instruments (Axe-Fx 3) and Analog Devices (FM3/9) chips, Line6 uses Analog Devices. The cost, availability and advancements in these determine a lot of what they can use in their next gen units. These processors are sold in 1000+ unit quantities so even if a single processor is not that expensive, imagine the capital investment when you have to buy thousands at once.

The TI chips used by the Axe-Fx 3 are already basically the most powerful thing you can get without increasing the cost per chip exponentially. There are versions that cram more of those together but the cost just skyrockets to levels where it might cost 5-10x more per chip. For Analog Devices stuff the chips used by the FM9 and Quad Cortex are afaik already about as good as it gets.

A lot of companies are going with ARM processors instead as these seem to have better availability than Analog Devices. Strymon moved from Analog Devices to ARM for their V2 series of pedals, Universal Audio UAFX are also powered by ARM. Nobody has cracked open an Eventide H90 yet so not sure what's in there. The pedals using ARM are of course nowhere near as complex as what Fractal, Line6 or NeuralDSP are doing so a lower horsepower ARM is more than good enough but probably not a feasible option for a next gen Fractal.

With supply shortages for components still going on, it's fair to expect that smaller companies like Fractal are reluctant to release a new generation of products. Fractal already had to replace the original FM9 with the FM9 Turbo because they could not get the processors needed and had to upgrade to a more expensive, slightly faster model to be able to actually make and sell them. Which means the FM9 has to be more expensive which then makes it harder for Fractal to compete against other brands.

TL;DR: Just buy a current gen Fractal and enjoy it. It's not going to get replaced soon.

 

[Will Chen]

Fractal doesn't participate in NAMM so any product announcements don't coincide with that.

The following is all speculation.

Fractal basically just got the FM9 out this year and they have said to be developing a new cab sim system similar to what you find on Helix 3.5 and Quad Cortex. It won't sound any better than what is available at the moment, will be just more intuitive to use. But that points to continued development on the existing platform rather than replacing it with a new product.

Fractal most likely won't release a new product in the next 2-3 years. Line6, who are a much bigger company backed by Yamaha, have had some of their people state on other forums not to expect a Helix successor for a couple of years at least. Both companies are surely at minimum designing if not developing their next gen products but you should not expect them anytime soon.

I mention Line6 because like Fractal, they are dependent on the available digital signal processors on the market. Fractal uses a mix of Texas Instruments (Axe-Fx 3) and Analog Devices (FM3/9) chips, Line6 uses Analog Devices. The cost, availability and advancements in these determine a lot of what they can use in their next gen units. These processors are sold in 1000+ unit quantities so even if a single processor is not that expensive, imagine the capital investment when you have to buy thousands at once.

The TI chips used by the Axe-Fx 3 are already basically the most powerful thing you can get without increasing the cost per chip exponentially. There are versions that cram more of those together but the cost just skyrockets to levels where it might cost 5-10x more per chip. For Analog Devices stuff the chips used by the FM9 and Quad Cortex are afaik already about as good as it gets.

A lot of companies are going with ARM processors instead as these seem to have better availability than Analog Devices. Strymon moved from Analog Devices to ARM for their V2 series of pedals, Universal Audio UAFX are also powered by ARM. Nobody has cracked open an Eventide H90 yet so not sure what's in there. The pedals using ARM are of course nowhere near as complex as what Fractal, Line6 or NeuralDSP are doing so a lower horsepower ARM is more than good enough but probably not a feasible option for a next gen Fractal.

With supply shortages for components still going on, it's fair to expect that smaller companies like Fractal are reluctant to release a new generation of products. Fractal already had to replace the original FM9 with the FM9 Turbo because they could not get the processors needed and had to upgrade to a more expensive, slightly faster model to be able to actually make and sell them. Which means the FM9 has to be more expensive which then makes it harder for Fractal to compete against other brands.

TL;DR: Just buy a current gen Fractal and enjoy it. It's not going to get replaced soon.

It also feels like we are in a different era regarding MFX/modelers. There's only so much juice you can squeeze out of an orange and while a next gen FM3 might allow more flexibility in terms of numbers of amps run simultaneously or the ability to run a higher quality reverb or pitch block, in all honesty those are more edge cases which aren't any real impediment in getting absolutely great tones. If we're being 100% honest, there's not much Fractal can do to get closer to real than it is today, every update is pretty subtle. I listen back to stuff I recorded on previous firmwares and it sounds great. Even the stuff I did using the AX8 sounds great. The biggest step forward Fractal can take IMHO is UI. I know, not as sexy as new amps, but overhauling the Cab UI similar to Line 6 and Neural, I'd love to see an "authentic" tab for mod/delay blocks, stuff like that.

 

[laxu]

It also feels like we are in a different era regarding MFX/modelers. There's only so much juice you can squeeze out of an orange and while a next gen FM3 might allow more flexibility in terms of numbers of amps run simultaneously or the ability to run a higher quality reverb or pitch block, in all honesty those are more edge cases which aren't any real impediment in getting absolutely great tones. If we're being 100% honest, there's not much Fractal can do to get closer to real than it is today, every update is pretty subtle. I listen back to stuff I recorded on previous firmwares and it sounds great. Even the stuff I did using the AX8 sounds great. The biggest step forward Fractal can take IMHO is UI. I know, not as sexy as new amps, but overhauling the Cab UI similar to Line 6 and Neural, I'd love to see an "authentic" tab for mod/delay blocks, stuff like that.

I've been going "this is it, as good as it gets" since the Axe-Fx 2 days and Fractal has always managed to make me eat my words. That said, as it is with FW 21 and FM3 6.0, these things just sound and feel stellar.

Like you said for me the bigger areas that could be better are in the ease of use department. I really liked for example the QC hardware because it was almost as easy to operate as a pedalboard. The only real difference in this area to Fractal or Line6 is more onboard controls (but less virtual parameters) and much faster navigation thanks to the touchscreen.

But there's a lot of things Fractal could do to improve their current ones, I think an "authentic" or "simplified" pages for effects would be awesome as the "authentic" pages on the Amp blocks takes out a lot of mental struggle from dialing them as you can refer to the real counterpart's operation and do the same things.

I don't feel I can quite vision what the next gen modelers are. The simple thing would be to do what NeuralDSP are doing in terms of hardware but I think Fractal and Line6 are more forward thinking than that so I'm really interested to see what direction they will take all this.

At the same time I wonder about the future of the high end hardware modeler. Every generation the budget stuff gets better and better and similarly plugins have taken big leaps forward while computers get ever more powerful. I love hardware, I bought an ASM Hydrasynth Explorer ealier this year and it totally makes more sense for me than trying to figure out some complex synth plugin.

 

[Aram Avagyan]

Fractal doesn't participate in NAMM so any product announcements don't coincide with that.

The following is all speculation.

Fractal basically just got the FM9 out this year and they have said to be developing a new cab sim system similar to what you find on Helix 3.5 and Quad Cortex. It won't sound any better than what is available at the moment, will be just more intuitive to use. But that points to continued development on the existing platform rather than replacing it with a new product.

Fractal most likely won't release a new product in the next 2-3 years. Line6, who are a much bigger company backed by Yamaha, have had some of their people state on other forums not to expect a Helix successor for a couple of years at least. Both companies are surely at minimum designing if not developing their next gen products but you should not expect them anytime soon.

I mention Line6 because like Fractal, they are dependent on the available digital signal processors on the market. Fractal uses a mix of Texas Instruments (Axe-Fx 3) and Analog Devices (FM3/9) chips, Line6 uses Analog Devices. The cost, availability and advancements in these determine a lot of what they can use in their next gen units. These processors are sold in 1000+ unit quantities so even if a single processor is not that expensive, imagine the capital investment when you have to buy thousands at once.

The TI chips used by the Axe-Fx 3 are already basically the most powerful thing you can get without increasing the cost per chip exponentially. There are versions that cram more of those together but the cost just skyrockets to levels where it might cost 5-10x more per chip. For Analog Devices stuff the chips used by the FM9 and Quad Cortex are afaik already about as good as it gets.

A lot of companies are going with ARM processors instead as these seem to have better availability than Analog Devices. Strymon moved from Analog Devices to ARM for their V2 series of pedals, Universal Audio UAFX are also powered by ARM. Nobody has cracked open an Eventide H90 yet so not sure what's in there. The pedals using ARM are of course nowhere near as complex as what Fractal, Line6 or NeuralDSP are doing so a lower horsepower ARM is more than good enough but probably not a feasible option for a next gen Fractal.

With supply shortages for components still going on, it's fair to expect that smaller companies like Fractal are reluctant to release a new generation of products. Fractal already had to replace the original FM9 with the FM9 Turbo because they could not get the processors needed and had to upgrade to a more expensive, slightly faster model to be able to actually make and sell them. Which means the FM9 has to be more expensive which then makes it harder for Fractal to compete against other brands.

TL;DR: Just buy a current gen Fractal and enjoy it. It's not going to get replaced soon.

Good analysis, thanks! Im most likely getting the FM3 at the end of this month.

 

[sprint]

I think there is room for core modelling improvement ie with amp model / cab interaction - though Fractal has started well down this road with the speaker page, imo it is not yet complete rw modelling which would be to attach a cab IR and have the amp model react accurately and automatically to specific characteristics enbedded into the IR definition (by the IR creator) - no need for end users to choose ICs (on top of the already rabbitholeish IR selection process) unless they want to. I really hope the anticipated Cab changes include something like this - I'll be somewhat dissappoited if it's only an ease of use improvement for existing mechanisms.

Also, for a loonng time, we've consistently underestimated the amount of distance remaining between the state of Fractal modelling and real amps. Since I started with Fractal in 09 (Ultra) we've repeatedly stated "yup - it's 99% there" only to be proven wrong dozens of times as subsequent firmware updates yield obvious significant modelling improvements. This continues today - so our cred on this is pretty low.

 

[Randalljax]

I think there is room for core modelling improvement ie with amp model / cab interaction - though Fractal has started well down this road with the speaker page, imo it is not yet complete rw modelling which would be to attach a cab IR and have the amp model react accurately and automatically to specific characteristics enbedded into the IR definition (by the IR creator) - no need for end users to choose ICs (on top of the already rabbitholeish IR selection process) unless they want to. I really hope the anticipated Cab changes include something like this - I'll be somewhat dissappoited if it's only an ease of use improvement for existing mechanisms.

Also, for a loonng time, we've consistently underestimated the amount of distance remaining between the state of Fractal modelling and real amps. Since I started with Fractal in 09 (Ultra) we've repeatedly stated "yup - it's 99% there" only to be proven wrong dozens of times as subsequent firmware updates yield obvious significant modelling improvements. This continues today - so our cred on this is pretty low.

IMO
Cygnus 2.0 is closer than ever
I have always been bothered by sort of a low mid compression and congestion that seems to be greatly reduced if even still present at all in 2.0
A large thread a few months back was also started about low end woof and bass getting smeared again almost like to much compression on the lows and attack that was not letting that frequency breathe
FAS at the time commented that some things modelling just could not do 100% yet in 2.0 I personally feel he did accomplish the clearer focus low end w more articulation and attack

So I agree , I won’t fall for the we have it now it done because Cliff always returns to prove us wrong
All I can say is right here and now
It’s damn good ,inspiring and fun to play
I have always been jealous of those guys that say played the new Marshall lost 3 hours because that was never my experience until 2.0
Now I get it

Oh yeah and as far as what is next gen I have no idea

 

[FPFL]

Nothing in the next gen will make ua better players I suspect. If that upgrade comes out, it'll be time to trade up! : )
The only meaningful place Fractal has left to upgrade anything IMHO is in interface and out of the box presets for the FX.
That's it.

From an amp standpoint? They've been "done" as far as my needs go for years now. I don't hear difference Cygnus 1 to 2 for example. I'm sure it's different, but it's nothing like "Wow! Thiis is so different" Yes, AF1 to AF2 was a "wow!!!!"tone upgrade. AF2 to AF3 was like a "huh, that's cool b/c everything is easier to do."

AF4 would be like "I can give it voice commands to change presets? That's cool." but I'm not waiting on a better Marshall Plexi. It's 100% done to my ears. It can't be Plexi-er unless they make the AF4 smell like warm vinyl when it heats up. That'd be sweet! Smell like an amp. A whole new world!

 

[Will Chen]

I started with Fractal in 09 (Ultra) we've repeatedly stated "yup - it's 99% there" only to be proven wrong dozens of times as subsequent firmware updates yield obvious significant modelling improvements. This continues today - so our cred on this is pretty low.

Does it? Honestly...and maybe I'm in the minority, but to me it feels many of the updates are very subtle in nature. Fractal is probably the one scenario (well outside profiling/capturing) where there's so many amps that there's a great deal of H2H comparisons which can be made to validate. But really...in a live situation or a recorded track even with the original Axe were people folding their arms and saying "nope, not real"? I think digital has been "there" for a while in terms of generating 100% realistic tones. Fractal obviously takes things to the next level and I never had the FM3 and AX8 side by side to really do a H2H, but the tracks I'm doing now don't sound "realer" than what I did with the AX8. That's not to say I do not appreciate Cliff and crew's dedication to perfection, just that I think Fractal figured out how to sound "real" a long time ago.

 

[sprint]

Does it? Honestly...and maybe I'm in the minority, but to me it feels many of the updates are very subtle in nature. Fractal is probably the one scenario (well outside profiling/capturing) where there's so many amps that there's a great deal of H2H comparisons which can be made to validate. But really...in a live situation or a recorded track even with the original Axe were people folding their arms and saying "nope, not real"? I think digital has been "there" for a while in terms of generating 100% realistic tones. Fractal obviously takes things to the next level and I never had the FM3 and AX8 side by side to really do a H2H, but the tracks I'm doing now don't sound "realer" than what I did with the AX8. That's not to say I do not appreciate Cliff and crew's dedication to perfection, just that I think Fractal figured out how to sound "real" a long time ago.

For me, the last couple of major releases have really moved the bar in terms of what I hear and feel, more than any other prior releases in the Ax3,2 or Ultra I've owned (everything seemed to fall into alignment somehow). Because these most recent changes were not something I expected in terms of sonic/feel improvement, I don't have confidence that there's not more in the tank, but, other than a mini recto, I've never owned a real amp very close to any of the Fractal amp models, so in that respect, I guess I'm not qualified to judge how close the models are to real.

More generally tho, I think there's areas of modelling that are not fully explored yet. Example above: Amp/Cab interaction - A key area Fractal's made inroad's into, but we are not there yet imo, in that the current modelling does not fully model the rl process which does not require any IC consideration at all (I connect my chosen real cab to my chosen real amp model, and the unique handshake is automatically formed without any IC consideration) - and it seems to be a reason some have trouble bonding with SS power amps and prefer tube (LxII) which overrides a big part of the modelling (real tubes added to modelled tubes). Any of those stock ICs make a huge sonic difference to any amp/cab so it's a pivotal part of the picture.

Another area I'd like
to see extended is preamp / power amp separation which is often cited as not currently possible due to an IP exposure issue - so an opportunity to extend thru further innovation / creative solutions.

These examples are not so related to the tonal realism of specific models, but are nonetheless areas of amp modelling that could still be expanded.

 

[FPFL]

I won't say things are perfectly modeled today, that's an electrical comparison I'm utterly not qualified to make.
I will say we are at a point where I no longer think of the sonic improvements as a big deal or even audible much of the time.

The "ease of use" is the hill we are still climbing. It's the literal only place I think Fractal isn't miles ahead of the pack. At this point it won't even be meaningful for me personally, I get the Fractal interface very well. I just don't think it's ideal yet.

 

[seclusion]

I got my ax8 about a year before the FM3, I use the ax8 live here in CR beach, lotsa sand n ocean corrosion, use the FM3 in the studio.
Hopefully when the next smaller floor variant comes along, I will sell the Ax8 likely at least half the cost of when it was new, once the newer machine is in my hands.
Though I’m having a hard time not bring the FM3 to a live show after these latest updates.

 

[chrisjnyc]

This topic comes up all the time... but no one has a crystal ball. Just buy what is available. Even if they announce a new Axe Fx 4, doesn't mean you can get it next week. Just looks at the FM9 release, it took about a year to clear the first day of the wait list reservations. Dont worry whats around the corner.

 

[Will Chen]

For me, the last couple of major releases have really moved the bar in terms of what I hear and feel, more than any other prior releases in the Ax3,2 or Ultra I've owned (everything seemed to fall into alignment somehow). Because these most recent changes were not something I expected in terms of sonic/feel improvement, I don't have confidence that there's not more in the tank, but, other than a mini recto, I've never owned a real amp very close to any of the Fractal amp models, so in that respect, I guess I'm not qualified to judge how close the models are to real.

More generally tho, I think there's areas of modelling that are not fully explored yet. Example above: Amp/Cab interaction - A key area Fractal's made inroad's into, but we are not there yet imo, in that the current modelling does not fully model the rl process which does not require any IC consideration at all (I connect my chosen real cab to my chosen real amp model, and the unique handshake is automatically formed without any IC consideration) - and it seems to be a reason some have trouble bonding with SS power amps and prefer tube (LxII) which overrides a big part of the modelling (real tubes added to modelled tubes). Any of those stock ICs make a huge sonic difference to any amp/cab so it's a pivotal part of the picture.

Another area I'd like
to see extended is preamp / power amp separation which is often cited as not currently possible due to an IP exposure issue - so an opportunity to extend thru further innovation / creative solutions.

These examples are not so related to the tonal realism of specific models, but are nonetheless areas of amp modelling that could still be expanded.

Fractal is miles ahead of others when it comes to controlling power amp/cab interaction. But what you're asking for is impossible. There is no "handshake" between a tube amp and cab, you're talking about the interaction electronically between the power amp/and cab, the Axe FX absolutely can emulate that relationship but you would always have to choose it in the real world. In the box...this would be a great thing to include in a new cab UI/engine, but it would never work with 3rd party IRs as there would have to be standardized metadata attached to the file.

No idea about the pre/power amp separation. Given Fractal allows you to modify the power amp as you see fit or disable poweramp modeling, unsure what you're looking for.

 

[sprint]

Fractal is miles ahead of others when it comes to controlling power amp/cab interaction

Agreed - I would not state otherwise, and have mentioned the same when this topic has popped up elsewhere

There is no "handshake" between a tube amp and cab, you're talking about the interaction electronically between the power amp/and cab

yes - I used the word "handshake" to refer to that electronic interaction. Sorry for the hack term.

the Axe FX absolutely can emulate that relationship but you would always have to choose it in the real world

but I don't choose an IC irl - I choose a speaker, put it in a cabinet, and connect the cab to a tube amp head at the right load setting and it interacts accordingly. I do not have to figure out or estimate the IC of the cab and set it somewhere (or choose it from a list).

In the box...this would be a great thing to include in a new cab UI/engine

yes - that's what I hope for

but it would never work with 3rd party IRs as there would have to be standardized metadata attached to the file

wrt 3rd pty IRs - standardized metadata is what I'm articulating here and in other threads - which is not impossible, just takes some partnership, cooperation, leadership, and effort across multiple parties. I think it would yield a lot of benefits for modelling users (and for IR makers also I guess as they could sell more IRs)

Given Fractal allows you to modify the power amp as you see fit or disable poweramp modeling, unsure what you're looking for.

A "Preamp OFF" button in the amp block is what I (and others) have wished for. reasons:

1. Facilitates improved 4CM for low volume players who don't run their traditional amps loud enough (and don't use attenuators) to get much power amp mojo out of them (the traditional amp power section is essentially running as hi-headroom power amp in such cases, never cranked up loud enough to bring out overall character). "PreOff" in the amp models would allow external preamps to be run into Axefx model power sections to get that mojo (and then into FR, hi headroom power amp ...).
2. To open the door to precise power amp only models (ie MB 2:90...) to mix n match with the AxeFx rack pre models, and perhaps open the door further to more popular / formerly popular rack preamps (ie ADA MP-1).
3. Facilitates mix n match pre-amp / power amp models within Axefx. In many cases this would not make sense or work as some amps operate more as a whole (Vox...) and many have complimentary pre-amp / power amp relationship, but, in other cases would be cool, ie to route a JVM Pre into a JCM power section or whatever.

We can get close to this now with the "Tube Pre" model which has a quite transparent preamp section to replicate "Preamp OFF", and we can change the Tube Pre model's power amp parameters to match those of another model's power amp section we want to emulate, but, since there are internal unexposed power section settings in every model that add character, it's not really the same as using a true "Pre-amp Off"

Anyway, just dreaming here, of what possibilities there could be - these are just things that come to my mind when the topic of "is this as good as it gets" / "how can it get any better" pops up. There are areas I think Fractal could keep chipping away at to add even more miles to the large distance they already have between them and the trailing comp in all the modelling facets.

sorry op - this got off your topic