Another “lost in the mix” thread

[Joshua_L]

Post your preset here, without it everybody can tell his story but would not be relevant to your case.

It’s hard for me to believe a fender clean can’t cut through the mix.

 

[Cam Heiliger]

Sometimes it’s easy to perceive your guitars as “buried” in the mix when you’re making room for vocals and other “lead” instruments. If your guitar isn’t focused in the mids or is overly compressed or distorted, this makes it really hard to help you find space in the mix without getting buried by other instruments or overwhelming the low end and taking up too much space. Good mix-ready EQ is crucial before even sending your signal to the board.

 

[Lance Holland]

Great feedback friends. Thank you.

I've been chatting with our bass player today and he's very supportive of finding something that works. As he was unpacking from the gig, he realized that our FOH speakers were set to the "scooped" setting which probably didn't help. He has no idea how that happened. Maybe that's why things sounded fine in my in ears but FOH was messed up? He's also removing the gate and compressor from the guitar channels to simplify the problem. He admits that he may have a "bass bias" and will try to focus on a more balanced mix. As a diagnostic tool, I plan on bringing my Zoom Q2N recorder to our next gigs. It's designed for live music recording.

On my side, I've committed to switching to a more mid-focused guitar tone to see if that works better in the mix. I have a "Chime" scene in my preset with the Matchbox amp that I've never used live. I've always thought that Vox-style amps are a bit nasal, but maybe that's the hole I need to sit properly in for our mix? The only other scene that I'll be using is the Acoustic one for those songs that call for it.

And, for those interested, I've attached my All In One patch. 90% of our material had been played on the "Clean" scene and the remaining 10% are either the Acoustic or Crunch scene. I can't include the 3Sigma Martin IRs that are used for the Acoustic scene as those are commercial.

With regard to those that have mentioned adding a control for a boost/EQ adjustment. I have used that...but in frustrating with it not fixing the problems, dropped it and started using a volume pedal. If we can fix the problem, I'd rather go back to the control switch as it's easier to use than a volume pedal.

 

[Cam Heiliger]

Sounds like you’re on the right track. The scoop setting is probably a big culprit. Should make an immediate improvement and you can make other adjustments around that to improve it further. Good luck!

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Great feedback friends. Thank you.

I've been chatting with our bass player today and he's very supportive of finding something that works. As he was unpacking from the gig, he realized that our FOH speakers were set to the "scooped" setting which probably didn't help. He has no idea how that happened. Maybe that's why things sounded fine in my in ears but FOH was messed up? He's also removing the gate and compressor from the guitar channels to simplify the problem. He admits that he may have a "bass bias" and will try to focus on a more balanced mix. As a diagnostic tool, I plan on bringing my Zoom Q2N recorder to our next gigs. It's designed for live music recording.

On my side, I've committed to switching to a more mid-focused guitar tone to see if that works better in the mix. I have a "Chime" scene in my preset with the Matchbox amp that I've never used live. I've always thought that Vox-style amps are a bit nasal, but maybe that's the hole I need to sit properly in for our mix? The only other scene that I'll be using is the Acoustic one for those songs that call for it.

And, for those interested, I've attached my All In One patch. 90% of our material had been played on the "Clean" scene and the remaining 10% are either the Acoustic or Crunch scene. I can't include the 3Sigma Martin IRs that are used for the Acoustic scene as those are commercial.

With regard to those that have mentioned adding a control for a boost/EQ adjustment. I have used that...but in frustrating with it not fixing the problems, dropped it and started using a volume pedal. If we can fix the problem, I'd rather go back to the control switch as it's easier to use than a volume pedal.

Ask for a bit of time at some rehearsals for confirming your EQ and where you sit in the mix. Once you’ve done it once each successive preset should get faster.

The recorder is a good idea too.

 

[RoshRoslin]

I got this trick from Scott Henderson when I was in college.

He always gigs with a looper pedal and I showed up early to see one of his soundchecks. He'll actually loop a blues and play one chorus (while recording the loop) then engage the loop and walk out into the audience and either tweak his amp and/or talk to the soundguy about how to mix what he wants it to sound like. Even move his mic around etc. All while the loop is playing and his band is just vamping a blues.

So I have been doing that at soundchecks for a decade+ at this point. Sometimes just playing "whole lotta love" or some other repetitive riff and looping it while the band is playing. If the soundguy is amenable I'll ask him to EQ it a certain way usually flat. But you can hear right away if he left some EQ on your channel or he's EQing it for a microphone or whatever the previous band/sound engineer did etc etc.

If you're running your own sound, then even better because you can EQ your channel AFTER your fractal to get it to sit in the mix for the venue and it will still sound like "your tone" in your ears.

I'm usually running sound on my gigs so at soundcheck I'll do the loop a riff thing, walk out with an iPad (I use a x32 or a touchmix) and mix the band.

 

[dpeterson]

No real way to account for a crappy sound person. We do our own monitors with iems to alleviate them screwing up our monitors, but out front is their realm. It's their job to mix, if they suck, get another sound company. You can go out front and listen during soundcheck but as soon as you go back up they will do what they do. Only real way is to work with the same sound company or a dedicated sound person.

Boosts use a null filter block with 3.5 - 4 db of boost.

 

[Lance Holland]

@RoshRoslin - that's a great idea. It would mostly be for our bass guy that runs the sound since he has his handful playing and singing during the sound check...unfortunately, he doesn't have a looper. With the FM9, maybe I can do final tweaks as I have a looper.

 

[Lance Holland]

@dpeterson ... we're a small band and have to run our own sound from the stage. It's just going to be a compromise. Luckily, our bass player that runs the sound is very open minded and recognizes that he's probably a part of the problem as he's adjusting the mix for him rather than the band.

I do have a "boost" of sorts with my volume pedal. I set up my levels with the heel down position and have a huge amount of boost on tap. I need to dial in the amount better as I'd rather have that boost fixed on a switch but I'm still working out that exact amount of boost needed. I've sometime pushed the level too high in the excitement of playing and then our bass player will pull me back down...we're essentially fighting each other where we need to be coordinating.

 

[Cam Heiliger]

@dpeterson ... we're a small band and have to run our own sound from the stage. It's just going to be a compromise. Luckily, our bass player that runs the sound is very open minded and recognizes that he's probably a part of the problem as he's adjusting the mix for him rather than the band.

I do have a "boost" of sorts with my volume pedal. I set up my levels with the heel down position and have a huge amount of boost on tap. I need to dial in the amount better as I'd rather have that boost fixed on a switch but I'm still working out that exact amount of boost needed. I've sometime pushed the level too high in the excitement of playing and then our bass player will pull me back down...we're essentially fighting each other where we need to be coordinating.

If you need any more than 2-3 db worth of boost to stand out for a solo then you still have EQ issues. Keep that in mind as you’re setting levels and EQ for everyone. If your bass player can’t hear himself in the mix then other instruments are probably creeping into the low end. Make sure all guitars and keys are cut at 80hz or more to make room for the bass and kick.

 

[md1234]

With the FM9, maybe I can do final tweaks as I have a looper.

Just a thought since you can run multiple instruments through the FM9... you can maybe setup a seperate chain in the FM9: plug the bass into a free input on the FM9, into the LOOPER block, into an available output, and run that into the regular input of the bassplayers setup. I'm not sure about the gain levels though... but it shouldn't take much extra CPU.

Then you can loop the bass guitar and play along and let the bassplayer do the mixing.

On second read: you will still miss his vocals...

 

[Lance Holland]

If you need any more than 2-3 db worth of boost to stand out for a solo then you still have EQ issues. Keep that in mind as you’re setting levels and EQ for everyone. If your bass player can’t hear himself in the mix then other instruments are probably creeping into the low end. Make sure all guitars and keys are cut at 80hz or more to make room for the bass and kick.

Of course, you are right. I think a lot of this has to do with him adjusting FOH based on his monitor mix which would need to have his bass, kick, and his vocals louder. That's the challenge.

I have a cliff of a cutoff for my guitar at 100hz, but I'm not sure what's going on with the rest of the instrument. That could be complicating things as well.

 

[Lance Holland]

Just a thought since you can run multiple instruments through the FM9... you can maybe setup a seperate chain in the FM9: plug the bass into a free input on the FM9, into the LOOPER block, into an available output, and run that into the regular input of the bassplayers setup. I'm not sure about the gain levels though... but it shouldn't take much extra CPU.

Then you can loop the bass guitar and play along and let the bassplayer do the mixing.

On second read: you will still miss his vocals...

While that sounds like a possibility, I'm not sure it's very practical for our setup. (and I'm already routing my keyboard through my FM9 via USB to Out3)

 

[Marioverkill]

I got this trick from Scott Henderson when I was in college.

He always gigs with a looper pedal and I showed up early to see one of his soundchecks. He'll actually loop a blues and play one chorus (while recording the loop) then engage the loop and walk out into the audience and either tweak his amp and/or talk to the soundguy about how to mix what he wants it to sound like. Even move his mic around etc. All while the loop is playing and his band is just vamping a blues.

So I have been doing that at soundchecks for a decade+ at this point. Sometimes just playing "whole lotta love" or some other repetitive riff and looping it while the band is playing. If the soundguy is amenable I'll ask him to EQ it a certain way usually flat. But you can hear right away if he left some EQ on your channel or he's EQing it for a microphone or whatever the previous band/sound engineer did etc etc.

If you're running your own sound, then even better because you can EQ your channel AFTER your fractal to get it to sit in the mix for the venue and it will still sound like "your tone" in your ears.

I'm usually running sound on my gigs so at soundcheck I'll do the loop a riff thing, walk out with an iPad (I use a x32 or a touchmix) and mix the band.

This is an awesome technique

 

[Jipps0525]

Sound checks are great. What I hear in my IEMs all night is great. Everything seems right, yet in our outdoor gig yesterday, a few in the audience told me they couldn’t hear my guitar or my bandmates’s guitar (he’s on another brand modeler). I tend to use Fender cleans and add a TS style boost for solos and for rock tones, use the trainwreck model. Our bass player runs the XR18 mixer from the stage (yeah - I know…he may be mixing it that way). But even he said that he was constantly pushing the guitars up and down the entire gig. He also mentioned that he has a compressor on most channels. (I’ve told him to turn that off as guitar amps compress plenty).

So - obviously ideas. Maybe a more mid heavy amp model like a Matchless?

Anything else?

This continues to be an ongoing problem. I’m close to saying screw it and start bringing an amp an micing it but I know that introduces other problems for us because it tends to ruin the monitor mix.

While your situation does indeed sound like a mixing issue since people noted both guitars not being heard, don’t count out the possibility of some people having terrible hearing or standing too close to the stage and getting overpowered by drums. With my fm9, I use IEMs and go direct to the PA, so no cab or personal monitor on stage although I do come out of some other monitors for the drummer. Point in mind is, last gig, a woman was sitting at the bar within 5 feet of our PA speaker and she said she couldn’t hear my guitar…. I said a prayer for her

 

[pauly]

I think your issue will be all but solved by removing the scooped preset on your pa speakers. Also, be sure you are high passing your guitar signals, too much bass is often a culprit when guitar sounds go missing.
Thanks
Pauly

 

[Lance Holland]

So, interesting update. Today, I spoke to the bride's father for a wedding we have booked this fall. His family came to last weekend's gig to check us out live. I asked him about his thoughts regarding the sound and specifically whether he had a hard time hearing the guitars. He said the mix sounded great.

Huh.

I'm wondering if there's more to this than just the mix. The bride's family sat more or less in line with the FOH speakers. I believe the comments about the mix in my first post came from someone that was sitting more off-axis from the FOH speakers....although I can't be certain.

So. maybe the mix was fine but the directionality of the FOH speaker makes some sounds harder to hear off-axis?

 

[Dave Merrill]

So, interesting update. Today, I spoke to the bride's father for a wedding we have booked this fall. His family came to last weekend's gig to check us out live. I asked him about his thoughts regarding the sound and specifically whether he had a hard time hearing the guitars. He said the mix sounded great.

Huh.

I'm wondering if there's more to this than just the mix. The bride's family sat more or less in line with the FOH speakers. I believe the comments about the mix in my first post came from someone that was sitting more off-axis from the FOH speakers....although I can't be certain.

So. maybe the mix was fine but the directionality of the FOH speaker makes some sounds harder to hear off-axis?

Any reason the think the bride's father has a clue about mix at all? If so, that's valuable info, feedback from an involved party in a good position to hear the mix in the room. If not, don't go chasing your tail...

 

[Lance Holland]

Any reason the think the bride's father has a clue about mix at all? If so, that's valuable info, feedback from an involved party in a good position to hear the mix in the room. If not, don't go chasing your tail...

That's a valid question. We chatted about the songs. He mentioned our singer missing a verse in a song and struggling to hit some notes on another song (we probably need to shift the key on that one). I think if he was listening enough to notice those details, he probably would have noticed if the guitars were drowned out in the mix.

So...I'm back to....I don't know what. Maybe weird acoustics at the venue?

 

[Dave Merrill]

That's a valid question. We chatted about the songs. He mentioned our singer missing a verse in a song and struggling to hit some notes on another song (we probably need to shift the key on that one). I think if he was listening enough to notice those details, he probably would have noticed if the guitars were drowned out in the mix.

So...I'm back to....I don't know what. Maybe weird acoustics at the venue?

You maybe hit it before with them being in a good position to hear the FOH speakers.

That's part of what makes bands go for low stage volume, so the mix in the PA is the mix in their IEMs is the mix out front, including close to the stage.