An Axe-Fx II with the 4CM seems the perfect setup, but all that AD/DA/AD??

J

Joost Assink

Member
So on paper, the Axe-Fx II seems like the perfect complement to my Two Rock amplifier to replace my entire pedal board and rack unit. I would not use the amp sims much, because that did not work for me when I had the ultra a year ago.

However, since this thing is designed for the 4 cable method (4CM), it might be good to put in front of my amplifier and in its effect loop. The MFC floor board through ethernet also sounds perfect.

The only thing that does concern me, is that I would go through 4 stages of analog-to-digital conversion. That is a concern for me. That is why, in the past, all my pedals were true bypass, and all my digital pedals had an analog-through. I also used a Suhr Minimix 2 in the setup I had going with my previous amp to maintain my analog tube tone.

So basically, my question is, does all that conversion lead to a compromise in tone? With my TC electronics G-Force rack unit, I felt I needed the Suhr Minimix to maintain my tube tone, which lost punch and body if I went through the analog to digital conversion of the dry tone on the G-Force.

I do realize that the G-Force's technology goes almost 10 years old, so I am hoping that the latest generation of really high and analog-to-digital converters do not have that problem.

Can you share your experience? Does using the Axe-Fx 2 with the 4 cable method hurt your dry tube tone?
 
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To me, AxeFx's primary function is an excellent replacement for a real amp, and the fact that the effects are top-notch as well is a bonus. So if you DON'T want the amp sim, which is totally understandable; some people have very strict tone requirements, then to me, maybe AxeFx isn't exactly what you're looking for.

If all you do is use AxeFx II for the effects, well, I don't think you'll be disappointed, but you are also paying a lot of money for the amp sims that you will never use.

I've read that TC Electronic G-System is very popular amongst tube amp players. Maybe you can look into that? G-System is designed specifically for that purpose, and half the price of AxeFx II, because it doesn't have any amp sims.
 
I don't know if you're a high gain player or not. I am not. I use my red plate as a clean base and use all the fx and gain boxes as a replacement for my pedal board. As far as 4cm it works great but also pluging in direct sounds great too. This may be a proble
With noise on high gain stuff but for me it's awesome tone all the way. It doesn't suck my tone at all. I don't agree that if you don't use the sims that you're not getting the most for your buck. It's tr most flexible unit money can buy bat none. Also I think cliff and co have spent a lot of time on sims but I believe that they are starting to add to the fx department as well via last few updates. I hope this continues
 
I don't know if you're a high gain player or not. I am not. I use my red plate as a clean base and use all the fx and gain boxes as a replacement for my pedal board. As far as 4cm it works great but also pluging in direct sounds great too. This may be a proble
With noise on high gain stuff but for me it's awesome tone all the way. It doesn't suck my tone at all. I don't agree that if you don't use the sims that you're not getting the most for your buck. It's the most flexible unit money can buy bar none. Also I think cliff and co have spent a lot of time on sims but I believe that they are starting to add to the fx department as well.last few updates. I hope this continues
 
For me 4CM is unusable (cause lot of hiss) if your axe II don t have the "output 2 mod " This mod is stock now with the newest model ...
Someone can confirm ?
PS : you need too your amp effect loop in "line level" no pedal level
 
benitodevalencio said:
To me, AxeFx's primary function is an excellent replacement for a real amp, and the fact that the effects are top-notch as well is a bonus. So if you DON'T want the amp sim, which is totally understandable; some people have very strict tone requirements, then to me, maybe AxeFx isn't exactly what you're looking for.

If all you do is use AxeFx II for the effects, well, I don't think you'll be disappointed, but you are also paying a lot of money for the amp sims that you will never use.

I've read that TC Electronic G-System is very popular amongst tube amp players. Maybe you can look into that? G-System is designed specifically for that purpose, and half the price of AxeFx II, because it doesn't have any amp sims.
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I hear what you're saying, however, it's not like I don't plan to use the amp sims. I will use them for direct recording, for playing with headphones on, and for having a backup "amp" if my Two Rock should fail on a gig. I've also thought that it would be fun to do some dual amp patches with my actual tube amp on one channel and the Axe-Fx amplifier sims on the other.

As for the TC electronic G–system, I've tried it when I borrowed one from a friend for a week, and it does not measure up to the Axe-Fx Ultra even (which I used to own). Neither in tone nor in flexibility. The input buffer on the G-System is far from transparent. And if you think the interface for the Axe-Fx is tricky, try programming the G–system. Finally, for the G system, I would have some very long cable runs going back and forth between the amp and the floorboard, easily adding 4x 9 feet of cable and thus tone loss. Whereas for the Axe-Fx, I can just place it underneath my head shell, and be done with some very short Humbuster patch cables. Since the MFC floorboard is controlled by an ethernet cable, it means that if I decided to move the floorboard further away from the amplifier for larger venues, I do not have to add even longer cable runs to go back and forth between the effects/floorboard and the amp (like I would have to do for the G-system).

gsegal said:
I don't know if you're a high gain player or not. I am not. I use my red plate as a clean base and use all the fx and gain boxes as a replacement for my pedal board. As far as 4cm it works great but also pluging in direct sounds great too. This may be a problem with noise on high gain stuff but for me it's awesome tone all the way. It doesn't suck my tone at all. I don't agree that if you don't use the sims that you're not getting the most for your buck. It's the most flexible unit money can buy bar none. Also I think cliff and co have spent a lot of time on sims but I believe that they are starting to add to the fx department as well.last few updates. I hope this continues
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I am also a big fan of Redplate amplifiers. Which model do you have? So, you are saying that you find there is no tone loss using the Redplate amplifier with the axe-fx2 and the four cable method? Since Redplate amplifiers are also a type of Dumble amplifier, just like Two Rock, that bodes well for my setup.
I am also looking forward to some extra time and energy spent by Cliff on the effects section

gibsonash said:
For me 4CM is unusable (cause lot of hiss) if your axe II don t have the "output 2 mod " This mod is stock now with the newest model ...
Someone can confirm ?
PS : you need too your amp effect loop in "line level" no pedal level
Click to expand...

As far as I know, that mod still isn't stock, because Cliff has gone on record several times claiming that this mod is not in the best interest of most players. It is only for players with specific amps that are usually high gain, and therefore modulate with the high-frequency stuff coming out of output 2 into audible hiss. since my amplifier is not high gain, I will 1st try a standard non-modded Axe-Fx2. if I also get the case I can moderate myself, because I build tube amplifiers.
 
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The g-system doesn't need long cable runs as you can take part of it and rack it, leaving the foot controller part only on the floor.
 
Joost Assink said:
I hear what you're saying, however, it's not like I don't plan to use the amp sims. I will use them for direct recording, for playing with headphones on, and for having a backup "amp" if my Two Rock should fail on a gig. I've also thought that it would be fun to do some dual amp patches with my actual tube amp on one channel and the Axe-Fx amplifier sims on the other.

As for the TC electronic G–system, I've tried it when I borrowed one from a friend for a week, and it does not measure up to the Axe-Fx Ultra even (which I used to own). Neither in tone nor in flexibility. The input buffer on the G-System is far from transparent. And if you think the interface for the Axe-Fx is tricky, try programming the G–system. Finally, for the G system, I would have some very long cable runs going back and forth between the amp and the floorboard, easily adding 4x 9 feet of cable and thus tone loss. Whereas for the Axe-Fx, I can just place it underneath my head shell, and be done with some very short Humbuster patch cables. Since the MFC floorboard is controlled by an ethernet cable, it means that if I decided to move the floorboard further away from the amplifier for larger venues, I do not have to add even longer cable runs to go back and forth between the effects/floorboard and the amp (like I would have to do for the G-system).



I am also a big fan of Redplate amplifiers. Which model do you have? So, you are saying that you find there is no tone loss using the Redplate amplifier with the axe-fx2 and the four cable method? Since Redplate amplifiers are also a type of Dumble amplifier, just like Two Rock, that bodes well for my setup.
I am also looking forward to some extra time and energy spent by Cliff on the effects section



As far as I know, that mod still isn't stock, because Cliff has gone on record several times claiming that this mod is not in the best interest of most players. It is only for players with specific amps that are usually high gain, and therefore modulate with the high-frequency stuff coming out of output 2 into audible hiss. since my amplifier is not high gain, I will 1st try a standard non-modded Axe-Fx2. if I also get the case I can moderate myself, because I build tube amplifiers.
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I have no hum with my red plate black loop. Again I am not a high gain guy.
 
Joost Assink said:
any more experiences using the 4 cable method with a tube amp (and tone loss through AD/DA/AD/DA?)
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I use an Axe II with a Marshall JVM 410H. The Axe II has the Output 2 mod. Without the mod, 4CM was unusable. Now, after the mod, this 4CM is excellent and very transparent.

I still use an RJM Fx Gizmo to keep the front end and post fx coming from the Axe out of my signal chain when they are not being used. So, my signal doesn't go through all the AD/DA/AD/DA when the Axe isn't used, but the Axe is transparent enough to not have to use any true bypass loopers. I use the Gizmo to patch in other fx and for other routing applications so it makes sense to include the Axe in the loops in this case.

There was a lot of debate on this forum a few months back about Output 2 hiss and the 4CM, and to cut a long story short, the mod was a must for my setup.
 
actually i didn´t see any need for this output2 mod, but actually i don´t use the 4cm routing very much (and i´m not too much into modern metalsounds or so...)...like luca9583, i use the glab gsc5 (looper) to be able to leave the pre-preamp-section out of the signalpath as often as possible, and that´s nearly all the time, for the 4cm definitely isn´t a solution for tone-junkies like me...so most of the time i have some pedals in front of the amp (comp, demeter midboost, rc booster) and do use the axe pre-preamps-fx only for wah or phaser or such fx...

so i think for tone-purists the 4cm of course can´t be a solution (and i don´t really think it will ever be in the future ;-((, for main sounds...but of course you can use it for special sounds, which don´t need to be very pure...and if you use a looper, it´s possible to have best of both worlds...i use it that way...but once again: for a great rock or blues tone you can never go with the 4cm...

one more thing: the axeII is definitely much better in the amps´ fx loop as the ultra has been...the ultra in the fx loop without a mini mix or some line mixer as well ruined the tone too much for me...with the axeII i don´t use a line mixer...
 
I use my AxeII in 4CM with a Mesa Mark IIC+. I'm really happy with it, and I'm pretty picky about tone loss. I was particularly nervous about putting A/D/A between the guitar and the front of the amp, since even slight changes in that interaction can make a noticeable difference to me, and I've had some issues trying it with other gear. I use a lot of different tones/gain levels, most of the cleaner patches use the Axe as preamp, and I also use the Mesa's lead channel quite a bit. I feel the whole setup is very transparent, with no noticeable tone loss at all. The Mesa still feels like the Mesa when I'm using that preamp, and when I use a patch where the Axe is the preamp, whether it be clean or very high gain, the rig is very quiet. I don't even use the noise gate, and I don't have the Output 2 mod, either. Working great for me.

Other users have had noise issues, potentially solved by the Output 2 mod. I'd definately give 4CM a try if you're so inclined.
 
LostInSpace said:
I use my AxeII in 4CM with a Mesa Mark IIC+. I'm really happy with it, and I'm pretty picky about tone loss. I was particularly nervous about putting A/D/A between the guitar and the front of the amp, since even slight changes in that interaction can make a noticeable difference to me, and I've had some issues trying it with other gear. I use a lot of different tones/gain levels, most of the cleaner patches use the Axe as preamp, and I also use the Mesa's lead channel quite a bit. I feel the whole setup is very transparent, with no noticeable tone loss at all. The Mesa still feels like the Mesa when I'm using that preamp, and when I use a patch where the Axe is the preamp, whether it be clean or very high gain, the rig is very quiet. I don't even use the noise gate, and I don't have the Output 2 mod, either. Working great for me.

Other users have had noise issues, potentially solved by the Output 2 mod. I'd definately give 4CM a try if you're so inclined.
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What's your thoughts on why the AxeII is working well for you in unmodded 4cm for hi-gain while others are having so much grief without the mod.
 
Modern converters can be extremely transparent but you gotta buy the good ones. Equally important is the analog support circuitry. Most MI gear uses cheap op-amps and single-ended I/O electronics which increases distortion and noise. The Axe-Fx II uses premium grade op-amps and differential I/O to/from the converters. It costs more but it's the right way to do it.
 
Tremonti said:
The G Major 2 is a great unit.
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I owned one and used it extensively. It has serious (routing) design flaws and a few bugs, at least when using it in a parallel loop. I was disappointed to say the least. The much older Rocktron Intellifex did much better, when used parallel.
 
To the OP,
I tried the 4 cable method tonight and was able to hear the true tone of my 2R.... I used the 4CM template provided as a factory preset and turned off all of the effects. Clear signal, no noticeable noise, even at max volume. I have an additional analog to digital conversion because I run a wireless guitar as well. I was truly impressed with the AxeII tonight. My neighbors... not so much.

BTW, not difficult to set up at all. I followed the diagram in the manual and it worked the first time around!


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thekonas said:
To the OP,
I tried the 4 cable method tonight and was able to hear the true tone of my 2R.... I used the 4CM template provided as a factory preset and turned off all of the effects. Clear signal, no noticeable noise, even at max volume. I have an additional analog to digital conversion because I run a wireless guitar as well. I was truly impressed with the AxeII tonight. My neighbors... not so much.

BTW, not difficult to set up at all.
Click to expand...

I did the same tonight with my Mesa. Sounds amazing! So much that I'm going to try it tomorrow instead of going direct to the FOH. It was an absolute breeze to get set up. With no effects enabled, I couldn't tell the difference between 4CM and plugging right into the front of the amp. Very transparent.
 
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