Amp in the room simulation

[Rex]

...then there was a wet "Pop"...

That was a horny field mouse. Best to leave it alone.

 

[John Tisdale]

Impossible, that is until Cliff finds a way to actually capture an IR, with your ears as a mic...

Cliff?

 

[Philip34]

The only difference between AxeFx—>in-ears vs amp-in-the-room is the feel, not the sound. It’s that moment when the Marshall fullstack is cranked with enough SPL’s to blow your pants like a Michael Jackson video.

Great thing is that the nicer FRFR monitors reduce even that difference in feel down to almost nothing.

 

[yeky83]

Okay, how does that work? The one article I read showed more several different captures each at a further distance from the speaker and the peaks of the IR were more intense the farther away. Is there something done to remove the room reflections?

Other than room reflections what is different about the sound right up against the speaker vs a distance away?

Search "ground plane measurement," that's how far-field IRs are captured.

Sound right up against the speaker, they're usually captured with a non-flat microphone, often with proximity effect (bass boost) as well. Mic & room characteristics is part of the sound.
Far-field is captured with a flat measurement mic. Cab response is the only thing captured.

 

[antcarrier]

It is possible guys. I have been working on a solution, albeit slowly. I have captured 1000s of reflection free far field IRs over the past few years. One day I will put together a collection of the best ones

 

[unix-guy]

The only difference between AxeFx—>in-ears vs amp-in-the-room is the feel, not the sound. It’s that moment when the Marshall fullstack is cranked with enough SPL’s to blow your pants like a Michael Jackson video.

Sorry, but that's just not true. This discussion has been had numerous times... The sound of a cabinet in a room is very dependent on where you stand relative to the speaker. It is not the same as a mic'd speaker.

 

[Philip34]

Sorry, but that's just not true. This discussion has been had numerous times... The sound of a cabinet in a room is very dependent on where you stand relative to the speaker. It is not the same as a mic'd speaker.

Yes, the sound does depend on where you stand in the room (SPL’s disperse in a linear fashion), but that doesn’t make my other statement false. In fact, you might have misunderstood what I said. I’m not saying they’re exactly the same, but I am saying the difference between them has diminished considerably over the last few years.

 

[unix-guy]

Yes, the sound does depend on where you stand in the room (SPL’s disperse in a linear fashion), but that doesn’t make my other statement false. In fact, you might have misunderstood what I said. I’m not saying they’re exactly the same, but I am saying the difference between them has diminished considerably over the last few years.

You literally said "the only difference"

 

[Philip34]

Fine. There are factors other than just tone and SPL’s. You win.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Sorry, but that's just not true. This discussion has been had numerous times... The sound of a cabinet in a room is very dependent on where you stand relative to the speaker. It is not the same as a mic'd speaker.

The sound of any speaker, be it a guitar cabinet, or a FRFR speaker, is going to be dependent upon where you stand in the room. Point your 4x12 or whatever one direction, go stand behind it and play, sounds different than standing in front. Same thing happens with a FRFR speaker, though obviously things like an open vs closed back cab are going to make a difference etc.

Regardless though, a guitar cab and a FRFR speaker cab are both still physical speakers in a given acoustic space. Amp in room and ASM-12 in the room, or CLR in the room etc, really isn't too different of things.

Now, where things can get very different is that you can monitor the sound of an IR though means other than a FRFR speaker. You can play back the emulated sound of a mic'd guitar cabinet through things like headphones. That is giving you just the sound of what the mic picked up, and as its going right into your ears, its taking the room out of the equation.

Headphones and a FRFR speaker sound different, using the exact same IR, because the FRFR speaker is interacting with the room, the headphones aren't.


Think of it another way, the sound I hear when I'm playing through my CLR, in my room, and the sound that is being recorded DI to my DAW, and then played back through my desktop monitors, or my headphones, doesn't sound like I heard it when playing, at a louder volume, in a given acoustic space.

Cab in room, and FRFR speaker in room aren't worlds apart. Amp in room and DI are different, but so are FRFR in room and DI

 

[yeky83]

The sound of any speaker, be it a guitar cabinet, or a FRFR speaker, is going to be dependent upon where you stand in the room. Point your 4x12 or whatever one direction, go stand behind it and play, sounds different than standing in front. Same thing happens with a FRFR speaker, though obviously things like an open vs closed back cab are going to make a difference etc.

Regardless though, a guitar cab and a FRFR speaker cab are both still physical speakers in a given acoustic space. Amp in room and ASM-12 in the room, or CLR in the room etc, really isn't too different of things.

Now, where things can get very different is that you can monitor the sound of an IR though means other than a FRFR speaker. You can play back the emulated sound of a mic'd guitar cabinet through things like headphones. That is giving you just the sound of what the mic picked up, and as its going right into your ears, its taking the room out of the equation.

Headphones and a FRFR speaker sound different, using the exact same IR, because the FRFR speaker is interacting with the room, the headphones aren't.


Think of it another way, the sound I hear when I'm playing through my CLR, in my room, and the sound that is being recorded DI to my DAW, and then played back through my desktop monitors, or my headphones, doesn't sound like I heard it when playing, at a louder volume, in a given acoustic space.

Cab in room, and FRFR speaker in room aren't worlds apart. Amp in room and DI are different, but so are FRFR in room and DI

The issue with close-miked IRs through an FRFR in a room is that it's effectively an amp-in-room-in-room. You end up playing a room sound (with all its colorations, comb filtering, resonances, etc.) through the FRFR into a room. Not the same thing as amp-in-room, quite different IMHO.

If you want amp-in-room with FRFRs, far-field IRs will get you there.

 

[unix-guy]

The sound of any speaker, be it a guitar cabinet, or a FRFR speaker, is going to be dependent upon where you stand in the room. Point your 4x12 or whatever one direction, go stand behind it and play, sounds different than standing in front. Same thing happens with a FRFR speaker, though obviously things like an open vs closed back cab are going to make a difference etc.

Regardless though, a guitar cab and a FRFR speaker cab are both still physical speakers in a given acoustic space. Amp in room and ASM-12 in the room, or CLR in the room etc, really isn't too different of things.

Now, where things can get very different is that you can monitor the sound of an IR though means other than a FRFR speaker. You can play back the emulated sound of a mic'd guitar cabinet through things like headphones. That is giving you just the sound of what the mic picked up, and as its going right into your ears, its taking the room out of the equation.

Headphones and a FRFR speaker sound different, using the exact same IR, because the FRFR speaker is interacting with the room, the headphones aren't.


Think of it another way, the sound I hear when I'm playing through my CLR, in my room, and the sound that is being recorded DI to my DAW, and then played back through my desktop monitors, or my headphones, doesn't sound like I heard it when playing, at a louder volume, in a given acoustic space.

Cab in room, and FRFR speaker in room aren't worlds apart. Amp in room and DI are different, but so are FRFR in room and DI

I am well aware of the similarities and differences of guitar cabinets vs FRFR... But many are not. To those who are not familiar, I think it's very misleading for people to say "they are almost the same" or "there is no difference" because that leads to disappointment.

Anyway, I'm honestly quite worn out with the whole "amp in the room" debate. I use FRFR exclusively, it works well for me, I have no plans to change.

 

[Tahoebrian5]

I'm still having a hard time understanding how far fields have less room reflections then near field. Ive just finished reading several write ups and all of them seem to indicate one advantage of near field is to minimize room reflections. If you have a large room and short capture to minimize reflections in far field, you can do the same thing with a near field, no? I'm not trying to be argumentative here just trying to understand this and the Internet articles I've read seem to be misleading or maybe just wrong.

 

[lqdsnddist]

I think when one understands the physical properties involved, there ceases to be any real “debate”.

It really comes down to ignorance and apples and oranges comparisons all too often.

Guy is used to rocking a 4x12 in his bedroom, he knows and loves the sounds (his neighbors surely don’t lol)

He gets a modeler and picks a 4x12 IR, playing it through his $250 5” KRK desktop monitor speaker pair, and he then gets on the forums saying how it doesn’t sound like his amp... well duh, but the myth persists

On the other hand, let’s say someone uses a champ or some other little 1x10 combo, and then they get an asm-12 or clr with 500 watts and the ability to crank 129 dB. They load that same 4x12 IR and are going to have a totally different take on things. No complaints about not feeling the chug et al, becasue they never had any chug to begin with.

It’s not about amps vs modeler, tubes, etc, it’s pretty much just guys cranking high wattage amps in small spaces switching to modelers or even low watt amps, and missing the high SPL, for better or worse.

When you consider all the facts and known properties of sound, as well as spend time playing the different options, you were through the hearsay and confusion and realize there isn’t much to debate

If I had a DRRI and a 1x12 half open back Xitone frfr cab sitting side by side in my den right now, I don’t think anyone would be able to tell me if they were playing the amp or if they were hearing my III through that frfr speaker.

I know I couldn’t tell them apart when I actually did that “test” firsthand

Told me enough to close the debate in my mind

 

[antcarrier]

I'm still having a hard time understanding how far fields have less room reflections then near field. Ive just finished reading several write ups and all of them seem to indicate one advantage of near field is to minimize room reflections. If you have a large room and short capture to minimize reflections in far field, you can do the same thing with a near field, no? I'm not trying to be argumentative here just trying to understand this and the Internet articles I've read seem to be misleading or maybe just wrong.

There is no reason why near field IRs cannot be captured to be reflection-free, ie under the same capture conditions as far field IRs. But because NF IRs naturally attenuate room reflections, it isn't necessary. The reflections are quiet enough to not cause any problems, and people even like the colouration these reflections provide - one of the benefits of longer IRs or ultra res.

The reason that FF IRs are required to be captured to be reflection free, is because the room sound is LOUD when the mic is far away, and this sounds bad. If you capture FF IRs correctly with a ground plane measurement, there is no room coloration at all - it's even more 'isolated' than an anechoic chamber. You end up with a shorter IR that only contains the speaker cabinet - no room information.

Once the room is removed from IR, the difference in tone from FF IRs has basically nothing to do with room reflections (because reflections aren't really a big deal in the tone of NF IRs either). It simply sounds different because you aren't listening to a mic against the grill any more.

 

[Rex]

I'm still having a hard time understanding how far fields have less room reflections then near field.

Far-field IRs aren't influenced by room reflections...if they're done right. See below.

Ive just finished reading several write ups and all of them seem to indicate one advantage of near field is to minimize room reflections.

That's because most people don't have the facilities to shoot an IR without room reflections. See below.

If you have a large room and short capture to minimize reflections in far field, you can do the same thing with a near field, no?

Correct. You can do the same thing with a mic placed in the near field. But it won't sound the same. Guitarists hear their cabs off-axis, from several feet away. But the near-field mic hears the cab on-axis, right up close, in the zone of death. There's more high-frequency content. And even though it may be only 2" from one part of the cone, it's three or four times farther away from other parts of the cone that are also making sound. Those waves all arrive at the microphone at different times, and that causes phase cancellations, changes in the frequency response, and other sonic weirdness. The difference in arrival times is minimized in the far field.


If you're shooting an IR, and the nearest surface is, say, 250 feet away, you have almost half a second before the first reflection arrives. For that half-second, room reflections are out of the picture.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here...

I know. No worries.

...just trying to understand this and the Internet articles I've read seem to be misleading or maybe just wrong.

Those articles are just addressing the practical limitations of shooting IRs. Most people don't have the facilities to shoot IRs without room reflections. Near-field becomes the only practical choice.

 

[Tahoebrian5]

Thx Rex, I think I got it

 

[skydog]

This won’t solve anything, but still decided to chime in. I had a eureka-moment years ago. I loved my 1965 Fender Champ. I thought it sounded much better (and was much easier to play) than my 1966 Fender Twin. But it was the era of powerful amps, and I always fronted-up with the Twin, and struggled along. Finally, played a gig in a very big room that held 1000 people. The Twin sounded and played like the Champ. I immediately realized, that both amps were essentially the same amp. It was the space that made the difference. I tried attenuators, but the tone suffered. Therefore (I logically concluded), I would need to have every size amp for every size space, lol! That’s how I ended up with a zillion amps, a zillion speakers and cabs, along with zillions of pedals. Thankfully, along came Fractal and Kemper.

So as everyone is saying, it boils down to a slight modification of the OP’s post title:

Which amp in which room...

 

[ethomas1013]

But a closed back FRFR monitor with a coaxial speaker, or a tweeter, sitting side-by-side with an amp will never sound identical the amp, regardless of how good the IR that is used. Particularly if the amp has an open back cabinet.

FRFR with IRs is great, but it’s just not the same sound, or the same playing experience, that I get when I plug a Tele in Open-G tuning straight into my RedPlate Blues Machine 66 and start cranking out some Stones tunes.

 

[rodzimguitar68]

The sound of any speaker, be it a guitar cabinet, or a FRFR speaker, is going to be dependent upon where you stand in the room. Point your 4x12 or whatever one direction, go stand behind it and play, sounds different than standing in front. Same thing happens with a FRFR speaker, though obviously things like an open vs closed back cab are going to make a difference etc.

Regardless though, a guitar cab and a FRFR speaker cab are both still physical speakers in a given acoustic space. Amp in room and ASM-12 in the room, or CLR in the room etc, really isn't too different of things.

Now, where things can get very different is that you can monitor the sound of an IR though means other than a FRFR speaker. You can play back the emulated sound of a mic'd guitar cabinet through things like headphones. That is giving you just the sound of what the mic picked up, and as its going right into your ears, its taking the room out of the equation.

Headphones and a FRFR speaker sound different, using the exact same IR, because the FRFR speaker is interacting with the room, the headphones aren't.


Think of it another way, the sound I hear when I'm playing through my CLR, in my room, and the sound that is being recorded DI to my DAW, and then played back through my desktop monitors, or my headphones, doesn't sound like I heard it when playing, at a louder volume, in a given acoustic space.

Cab in room, and FRFR speaker in room aren't worlds apart. Amp in room and DI are different, but so are FRFR in room and DI

You are not going to be able to achieve an Amp in the room sound from an IR, and listen to it through headphones or a CLR/FRFR set up. It is physically impossible. The IR's, regardless of near the speaker or far from it, will be limited to sounding the way your listening source reproduces them.

We've been over this 10,000 times. The axe fx is meant to emulate the sound of a guitar complete with the mic'd speaker cabinet........not the speaker cabinet itself.

The best example of this is the Youtube video of a few famous guitarists playing in a glass booth with a Plexi turned up to 10. The audio switches between the mic'd speaker cabinet, and the microphone on the camcorder or phone itself. Two, totally different sounds - not even close.

The sound we get out of the axe fx, through a CLR, will simply be the close mic'd sound, when played through a full-range PA system.....not the tone you'd expect by standing in front of a Marshall 4x12 with a dimed Plexi.

If you want an amp in the room sound, you'll need to get.....an amp.....and put it in the room with you. Seems so simple.