After 15 years of playing...

atyourlasthourrr

atyourlasthourrr

Inspired
I think it's time to really get serious about learning theory..

Honestly, I consider myself a technically proficient player, but I feel somewhat limited by my lack of knowledge and it's difficult to write/improvise outside of my 'normal shapes'..

What's the best way to incorporate learning theory into my everyday playing/practicing without going full university style study mode? Ideally, I'd like a learning method that I can incorporate into my everyday jamming that would help me memorize the fretboard, intervals, scales, modes, chords..etc..

Any tips?
 
Jazz theory is applicable everywhere. It's actually relatively simple. I can't recommend any books. But there are a slew of them nowadays. I don't know any. And I can't say just study with somebody because I think most guys have some of the stuff backwards. But even something a little wrong is better than nothing at all.
 
henryrobinett said:
I can't recommend any books. But there are a slew of them nowadays. I don't know any. But even something a little wrong is better than nothing at all.
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I've tried the textbook approach but I find it very uninspiring and very few things ever really 'stick' that way..

I agree with your last sentence though.. it's gotten me this far along!
 
If you post up an area you are specifically interested in I'm sure many of us will attempt an intelligent response
 
henryrobinett said:
Jazz theory is applicable everywhere. It's actually relatively simple. I can't recommend any books. But there are a slew of them nowadays. I don't know any. And I can't say just study with somebody because I think most guys have some of the stuff backwards. But even something a little wrong is better than nothing at all.
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While focusing on Jazz theory would be easier and more applicable to the guitar...
I really think regular or classical theory, traditional theory would be much better and would always get to all the jazz stuff anyway.

Jazz theory really focuses on more chords and complex chords so much as other stuff- and that other stuff is more important.

I think all the jazz theory one would learn in a typical set of university theory classes only takes about two days. I also think applying that stuff to guitar might teach him less usable stuff and just add confusion.

(I say applicable and not at the same time- I'm contradicting myself- it's easier to see certain chords/patterns in scales on the guitar in the jazz theory stuff- but on the other hand a 13th chord is pretty easy to explain but you need the regular theory stuff foundation to really get it- and once you get it- you can learn all the jazz theory stuff in no time)
 
atyourlasthourrr said:
I think it's time to really get serious about learning theory..

Honestly, I consider myself a technically proficient player, but I feel somewhat limited by my lack of knowledge and it's difficult to write/improvise outside of my 'normal shapes'..

What's the best way to incorporate learning theory into my everyday playing/practicing without going full university style study mode? Ideally, I'd like a learning method that I can incorporate into my everyday jamming that would help me memorize the fretboard, intervals, scales, modes, chords..etc..

Any tips?
Click to expand...

So. #1 tip- go to a university and study theory (ignore this one)
#2 tip- go to a community college and study theory (ignore this one)
top 3...
Find someone that has a background in orchestration, conducting or composition- who went to college for it or is finished...
preferably someone that doesn't play guitar AT ALL

And then pay them their rate for private lessons for one on one theory lessons- once or twice a week until you learned everything they know.

You need theory and aural perception/ear training.

I can't promise a guy that plays guitar and studied theory knows anything- In fact- guitar teachers are mostly hacks- they have no education training yet call themselves teachers because they can do something.

Learning it from a not guitarist would also make you do the work of applying what you're learning to guitar- which will make your brain work harder and better at getting it.

I've thought hundreds of people theory and guitar theory- I've had an idea for a book for years that I could write about practical guitar theory

HOWEVER- I've never done it with a guitar in my hands- always a piano.

Guitar is a terrible instrument... you can learn one rudimentary thing- like a scale pattern- then play all 12 scales instantly...
I promise you- playing trumpet at a high level for 4 years- there are scales I never played- it's really hard...it's not like guitar

So it's easy to be a hack on guitar- so stay away from it- and the people that play it- and learn good theory.

I've been obsessed with orchestration and theory since I was 15- it's like scientists who want to know all the secrets of the universe- except- you can pretty much learn everything in music- there isn't much unknown. Although equal temperament still blows my mind.

I reread your post again and also wanted to mention- scales/modes and stuff like that on guitar aren't going to lead to or open doors you want to open. Because people use them wrong.

Everything in music and theory is like a trick bag... you put things you learn or hear or study in your little trick bag of guitars and it's your job to open it up in your brain and spill it out through an amplifier. I think when we hear Joe Satriani say "dorian mode" and then we study some pattern or something- we miss the point and use it all wrong and it makes us make bad music than understand and make good music.

I have every book on theory out there, and orchestration- I kept all my text books too
It's not something you can read and learn on your own- and I wouldn't bother with youtube or programs on dvd or books or whatever.

But anyway- you need to get as close to as traditional university theory as possible

I never saw the The Grand Unified Theory Of Fretboard Organization before

So I looked it up- looked into it.... watched a few videos...
That's exactly what I recommend you not learn or watch.

It also just proves why my first lesson with any theory person is THE CHROMATIC SCALE

Guitar people are really neglected with good information.
 
Jeries said:
So. #1 tip- go to a university and study theory (ignore this one)
#2 tip- go to a community college and study theory (ignore this one)
top 3...
Find someone that has a background in orchestration, conducting or composition- who went to college for it or is finished...
preferably someone that doesn't play guitar AT ALL

...

I never saw the The Grand Unified Theory Of Fretboard Organization before

So I looked it up- looked into it.... watched a few videos...
That's exactly what I recommend you not learn or watch.
Click to expand...
I get what you're saying, but I only agree with some of it. Example:

The best way to learn electronics is to earn a college degree in electrical engineering...as long as you have someone else to teach you how to be a good technician, because you won't learn that from your college courses.

Or...if your goal is to be a better technician, learn from a practicing technician. That way, you can become a superb technician without having to learn calculus or field theory.

Likewise, if your goal is to become a more fluent guitarist (see the OP's list of requirements), learn from a practicing guitarist. You'll get there faster. General theory can come later, if you're so inclined. A good guitar teacher will already have general theory under his belt.
 
Jeries said:
While focusing on Jazz theory would be easier and more applicable to the guitar...
I really think regular or classical theory, traditional theory would be much better and would always get to all the jazz stuff anyway.

Jazz theory really focuses on more chords and complex chords so much as other stuff- and that other stuff is more important.

I think all the jazz theory one would learn in a typical set of university theory classes only takes about two days. I also think applying that stuff to guitar might teach him less usable stuff and just add confusion.

(I say applicable and not at the same time- I'm contradicting myself- it's easier to see certain chords/patterns in scales on the guitar in the jazz theory stuff- but on the other hand a 13th chord is pretty easy to explain but you need the regular theory stuff foundation to really get it- and once you get it- you can learn all the jazz theory stuff in no time)
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Of course I could not disagree more. For any guitar players usage jazz theory is applicable. Classical theory goes into antiquated systems that aren't even used any more. Figured bass. No one used that but it's required. Or on the other extreme 12 tone rows, while cool to know and very simple actually, how many times have we been asked to jam on a row?

For a modern guitarist you need to know chords, how they're spelled, why, extensions, poly chords, neighbors, modulation, key centers ( very basic), tonic - dominant relationship, altered tones, various scales and their real world application. How progressions typically flow, Roman numeral system, solo analysis, chord voicing, phrasing study. Improvisation. I'm not mentioning modes because they're so basic it's stupid.

These are real world applications for the modern electric guitarist providing tools he can use in any everyday situation. Not esoteric theory for the sake of theory that has little practical application in the real world.
 
Plus the symbology is entirely different! I've seen a lot of classical graduates who have NO IDEA reading a chart of chord symbols. You might see E/A, Gmaj7+11, Bb/C, Abm9, Db7+9, F#/G. They would have no idea. These are typical chord symbols that musicians universally understand. There's no context for this. And forget it if asked to improvise on that.

Or less esoteric - Dø7, G+7b9, D/C, Ab2.

The modern guitarist would be expected to know how to handle chords, both playing them and being creative with them. First you have to know what they are and their functions.
 
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I will further say this - I do teach via Skype. I'm not free. But I've taught in a couple of community colleges, and jazz (not for guitarists but every instrument) at the University of the Pacific. I teach guitar and jazz THEORY, which is applicable to everything in popular music. It's the standard modern musician use to talk with one another and communicate musical ideas.

As I said I don't know of any specific books. They all have their usefulness and problems I've seen. And I've had too many students who have the same confusions and misunderstandings about music - MODES for fricking example - that I can't recommend studying privately as the end all answer. It seems to be a common contagion with guitar teachers who got their information probably from a bunch of books who got their information from other guitar players . . . It always depends on with whom.

PM if interested.
 
Tahoebrian5 said:
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When I used to have time to study I was working on understanding Teds modulation techniques. Pure genius! I can see a lot of potential for real world applications in song writing and soloing using the stuff he teaches here. I've transcribed some of this stuff and a guy named Will Kriski transcribed the entire first video which I have if any one is interested.

As far as jazz theory only being applicable to Jazz, do not agree. All those extensions in jazz chords are good to know for soloing as well.
 
>> and very few things ever really 'stick' that way..
One possible strategy could be to find areas where you feel that it "sticks". We need some kind of learning curve - otherwise there is no progress - but trying to climb vertical walls never got me anywhere.
 
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