Advice wanted from other musicians regarding stage volume

Stringtheorist

Stringtheorist

Fractal Fanatic
Last night I performed with my band at a typical pub venue which seemed unremarkable in terms of acoustics. However, I found the sound pressure levels coming from the bass and drums intolerable. No matter where I stood I could feel my eardrums vibrating and was forced to wear earplugs. I was the only member of the band who seemed to be affected. I have several questions:

1) Is it normal and/or dangerous if you can feel your eardrums vibrating? It's most uncomfortable.
2) Could room acoustics account for me having a hard time whilst the rest of the band are unaffected?
3) Is there a solution besides wearing earplugs and/or telling the drummer to play more softly?

I've played hundreds of gigs with these guys, and although we do tend to play loud I've never experienced spikes of air jabbing my eardrums before.
 
I cannot say much about what you experienced, but if you gig a lot then wearing earplugs is probably a very good idea. Make sure you get some good ones that are more lineaer,
and expect that you have to take some time to get used to it. For guitarists wearing earplugs on a gig should not make it impossible to play. I am amazed at how much better it
feels to go from a regearsal/gig with ears that are not tired or even ringing from the volume.

Jens
 
If the sound level is so high that it's causing you discomfort, run for your earplugs — your hearing is in immediate danger. As for the cause, it could be room acoustics, with you in a bad spot in the room; it could be that the sound was louder than normal, and your ears were the first to notice it; maybe you're coming down with a cold or an ear infection, or maybe your ears or Eustacian tubes were plugged by allergies or the generally nasty bar atmosphere; maybe the sound guy was asked to "Turn it up, dude!," and the mains were hotter than normal. Either way, go for your plugs!

Hearos makes a "high fidelity series" earplug that does a decent job of cutting back sound levels without screwing up frequency response too badly. They're worth checking out. And as Jens said, if you regularly play loud, you should be wearing your plugs at every gig and practice session, or you will get progressive hearing loss.
 
My experience with earplugs has been patchy. Whilst I like the comfort of playing all weekend without my ears ringing for two days afterwards, I can rarely hear my stage monitor clearly enough without turning it up so loud that it's a problem for the rest of the band (this is with -9dB filters). I know I should insist that they all wear earplugs too, but I don't think that'll go down too well. Last night I ended up with one plug in on my left (facing the drummer) and one out on my right, with my monitor turned sideways away from stage center. :/
 
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What kind of earplugs do you use. If you get the ones that are molded to your ear you can choose the filter and how many db's it takes of the level.
If you ears a ringing days after the gigs you better do something about it.

Jens
 
Moulded Elacin plugs with -9dB filters. Last time I looked these were the minimum protection you could get. I started with -15dB and these were impossible to use... Couldn't hear anything except the drums.
 
ok. I have -15 db too. That works quite well.
When I use them I have trouble hearing what chord extensions the piano player is playing because I am lacking some of the higher harmonics (I suspect). For the
rest I find that it often improves the sound it took some getting used to though.
Mine are from "Alpine". I just bought them I did not check what was what with the different brands.

Jens
 
My experience is that my Elacin (-9db and -15db) often improve what I'm hearing on stage. If you can only hear the drummer WITH the plugs it should not be too different without (except for the higher pressure and pain).
If you can't hear yourself you're either really not loud enough or your sounds don't have the right spectrum for the band.
When the sound on stage is good and if it's not too loud playing without plugs is great; if the sound is bad and/ or too loud the plugs increase clarity for me.
 
Alpine

Jens said:
I cannot say much about what you experienced, but if you gig a lot then wearing earplugs is probably a very good idea. Make sure you get some good ones that are more lineaer,
and expect that you have to take some time to get used to it. For guitarists wearing earplugs on a gig should not make it impossible to play. I am amazed at how much better it
feels to go from a regearsal/gig with ears that are not tired or even ringing from the volume.


Jens
Click to expand...

I agree. My brother sells Alpine plugs. He showed me statistics on volume/ duration of exposure/ loss of hearing. Shocking.
Your ears are your most important 'tools'!!!
 
The guys in my band were using 100 watt tube amps and really loud. I ended talking to them into looking at a really good mixer (Presonus Studio Live) and K10/K12s/KSub for stage monitors and mains...Also got the other guitar player to use modelling (he still does not have an Axe-FX yet). We reduced the stage volume and have an awesome sound now (compared to the distorted, noisy sound before). Fortunately, our drummer doesn't beat the hell out of the drums...this is important as the band's stage volume is controlled by the drummer.

If you can't talk your mates into the above, I've used In-Ear monitors before. If you run a good IEM w/your own EQ and Mix it will solve this issue and the rest of the group can just deal w/the volume.
 
Stringtheorist said:
1) Is it normal and/or dangerous if you can feel your eardrums vibrating?
Click to expand...
It is not normal, and it is dangerous.

2) Could room acoustics account for me having a hard time whilst the rest of the band are unaffected?
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It's possible, but you've got to figure that, on a bandstand in a bar, you are all experiencing similar, if not identical, effects due to room acoustics.

3) Is there a solution besides wearing earplugs and/or telling the drummer to play more softly?
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No. The latter solution is the only viable one, as the bass player and drummer are causing damage to their hearing, whether or not they recognize it.
 
favance said:
If you can't talk your mates into the above, I've used In-Ear monitors before. If you run a good IEM w/your own EQ and Mix it will solve this issue and the rest of the group can just deal w/the volume.
Click to expand...

This might be the way to go, but I'm a bit loathe to shell out loadsamoney on a good system given that I still need to run a relatively loud stage monitor in order to get controlled guitar feedback. I suppose I could return to using a backline instead and dispense with the monitor altogether. :/
 
+10000000 EARPLUGS!!!! I played many years with a VERY loud drummer and we always had these bonecrushing stage levels. I loved playing loud and still would if I could. I'm paying for it now and for the rest of my life with a high frequency ring 24/7. The hearing loss in the upper registers is bad enough but the tinnitus gets unbearable at times. I'm not sure what the others are referring to but I recently got fitted for the molded musicians plugs ($170) and they work great. I tried the over-the-counter plugs and they sucked. Basically just muffled the high end and got really uncomfortable after a half hour. Do your ears (and your sanity) a favor.
 
Stringtheorist said:
1) Is it normal and/or dangerous if you can feel your eardrums vibrating? It's most uncomfortable.
2) Could room acoustics account for me having a hard time whilst the rest of the band are unaffected?
3) Is there a solution besides wearing earplugs and/or telling the drummer to play more softly?
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NO / YES
YES & NO
NO

Wear your hearing protection at every gig or you'll carve big chunks out of your hearing & have major regrets. If you can't hear your rig with earplugs in, then TURN IT UP or move it to where you can hear it better.
If stage volume is at 110db, then -15 earplugs aren't going to save you from hearing damage. Look it up.
I'm surprised you haven't experienced standing waves before. Look that up too.
Did you even do a sound check before you started playing?
Isolate the bass cab from the stage (put something like chair cushions under it). If it's sitting right on it, that could be part of it.
If kick & bass are going through the monitors pull them out!
Swap stage location w/ the bass player -- he might like it -- or work w/ bass player to notch that resonant frequency. If he has some decent EQ on his rig he might be able to reduce it.

This could also be coming from the mains and getting trapped where you're at. It might have nothing to do with drummer bass player volume. That's something you can work on with the sound man as well.

Everything above is standard knowledge for many players. I can't stress enough to protect your hearing and make sure you've got the right monitoring.

If you're at -9 and you turn UP your rig to hear it, you'll need to switch to -15. Not "trading up" your earplugs when you turn up is one of the most common ways to damage your hearing WHILE you're using earplugs.
 
Agree, hearing loss is cumulative and permanent. Be careful. I've used the cheap foamy ones that you roll between your thumb and finger then stick em in and they expand. You can pull them outward and adjust the amount of cut to a certain extent. Next time you play that venue, stand on the other side of the drummer and see if there's a difference. Maybe in-ear monitors would help too.
 
solo-act said:
NO / YES
YES & NO
NO

Wear your hearing protection at every gig or you'll carve big chunks out of your hearing & have major regrets. If you can't hear your rig with earplugs in, then TURN IT UP or move it to where you can hear it better.
If stage volume is at 110db, then -15 earplugs aren't going to save you from hearing damage. Look it up.
I'm surprised you haven't experienced standing waves before. Look that up too.
Did you even do a sound check before you started playing?
Isolate the bass cab from the stage (put something like chair cushions under it). If it's sitting right on it, that could be part of it.
If kick & bass are going through the monitors pull them out!
Swap stage location w/ the bass player -- he might like it -- or work w/ bass player to notch that resonant frequency. If he has some decent EQ on his rig he might be able to reduce it.

This could also be coming from the mains and getting trapped where you're at. It might have nothing to do with drummer bass player volume. That's something you can work on with the sound man as well.

Everything above is standard knowledge for many players. I can't stress enough to protect your hearing and make sure you've got the right monitoring.

If you're at -9 and you turn UP your rig to hear it, you'll need to switch to -15. Not "trading up" your earplugs when you turn up is one of the most common ways to damage your hearing WHILE you're using earplugs.
Click to expand...
Sound man? Pfff. Are you having a laugh? We're a little pub band. We can't afford a sound man. We have to do it all ourselves. (In actual fact, the singer handles all the desk work.) Soundcheck consists of playing two songs to make sure rigs are working, kick drum sounds tight, my Axe-Fx global amps are more or less balanced, and the keys and vocals can be heard. That's all we generally have time for once we've set up.
No bass or drums in my monitor. Just guitar and (my) vocals.
Having to turn up at all (and the associated decision-making over which earplugs to wear) isn't a solution. This is the problem I'm trying to solve. If we don't ALL wear them we're not playing under the same conditions. But I take your point that excessive volume = hearing damage and I need to protect myself against this regardless.
It's odd that it only seems to be this particular venue where I've experienced this problem. :/
 
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solo-act said:
Wear your hearing protection at every gig or you'll carve big chunks out of your hearing & have major regrets.
Click to expand...
If you need hearing protection to protect yourself from what you're producing, then what about your audience? I submit that some amount of concern about hearing damage to paying customers is in order.

If stage volume is at 110db, then -15 earplugs aren't going to save you from hearing damage. Look it up.
Click to expand...
If you are producing 110dB at 2 meters from your amp, you're producing 104dB at 4 meters and 98dB at 8 meters, not counting any support from reflections. Most bar acts will have audience members well within an 8-meter radius of the band.

I'm surprised you haven't experienced standing waves before.
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"Standing waves" have nothing to do with making transients (drums) too loud. If there are any "standing waves," their effect will be confined to isolated low frequencies, and there will be obnoxious booming and over-ringing when you excite them.
 
Stage volume = as low as possible. Good for you and good for the audience.
Always wear moulded hearing protection. At least -15db. Get used to it !!!!! (or IEM)

In my band we are almost dead quiet on stage. The drums are are damped (not sure if that is the right word in English) and trigged trough a D-drum module.
Keyboards DI to the PA.
Guitar DI via the Ultra to the PA
Bass DI to the PA.
We all use IEM except for the basist who has a monitor.
 
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