Advice needed on tweaking my Ultra to resolve an issue

H

HillbillySims

Member
I’m hoping you guys can give me some tips/ideas on what I can tweak in my Fractal to address the below issue. I’m sure there is something I can do to take care of it, just not sure what.

On clean sounds I am having a hard time smoothing out the sounds on my 1st/2nd strings & making them jump out.. Let me explain further

The sound when I hit the 1st/2nd strings from medium to hard attack…results in what I would describe as a slightly harsh / non-smooth sound. Similar to what I have heard previously on other digital processors. As well as the sound being thin & the notes not jumping out… Like they don’t have the power to jump out on leads. I believe the Fractal is on a different level & there is a way to tweak this out... .I just need some pointers

For this sound on my normal rig I used a Bogner Shiva combo with a compressor pedal & Fulltone fatboost with a little gain dialed in. The result is very smooth & the higher strings really jump out with more power. (when I saw more power… have you ever heard a ES-335 with size 12 strings through a fender Twin?... those notes on the 1st/2nd string have power & thickness behind them)

So far, I HAVE been able to replicate every other nuance of my regular rig on the Fractal…other than this one part mentioned above with the higher strings. If I can figure out how to address this & tweak it, I’m gonna be pretty happy…

Without posting the exact settings… Here is the Fractal chain off the top of my head:

• Telecaster with Lindy Fralin Blues Special pickups
• Compressor (pedal type).. with medium squash (like a Keeley with the sustain turned up to about 35%.. and the drive turned up to maybe 60%)
• No drive pedal in front of the amp
• Shiver Clean amp model. Set just to the edge of OD (drive set to about 1-2 O’Clock).. but no hair coming through. Presence set fairly low. Depth, Damp, Sag set to about 11 or 12 o’clock. Master about 65% up… Level about 65-70% up
• 1X12 EVM 12L cab model… with SM57 mic model
• Little delay for slap-back
• Little reverb
• Power-amp simulator OFF
• Powered by Tech-21 power engine 300
• Running into an Egnater 2X12 cab

Any ideas on what I can try??
 
Any chance you could identify a clip with the sound you're looking for in it? Without a sonic reference, it's gonna be very difficult for anyone to know just what you have in mind.
 
I dont have ability to record.... in a nutshell.. its just harshness / non-smoothness of the 1st/2nd string notes. (they are NOT too trebly or ice picky at all... Just harsh.... digital sounding)

Not knocking the fractal at all.. I think this can be tweaked out. Because I have the other 90% sounding just like my Shiva & boutique pedal rig
 
I'm not suggesting that you make a clip. All you need to do is find one - say, on youtube - that has the sound you're going for.
 
HillbillySims said:
I’m hoping you guys can give me some tips/ideas on what I can tweak in my Fractal to address the below issue. I’m sure there is something I can do to take care of it, just not sure what.

On clean sounds I am having a hard time smoothing out the sounds on my 1st/2nd strings & making them jump out.. Let me explain further

The sound when I hit the 1st/2nd strings from medium to hard attack…results in what I would describe as a slightly harsh / non-smooth sound. Similar to what I have heard previously on other digital processors. As well as the sound being thin & the notes not jumping out… Like they don’t have the power to jump out on leads. I believe the Fractal is on a different level & there is a way to tweak this out... .I just need some pointers

For this sound on my normal rig I used a Bogner Shiva combo with a compressor pedal & Fulltone fatboost with a little gain dialed in. The result is very smooth & the higher strings really jump out with more power. (when I saw more power… have you ever heard a ES-335 with size 12 strings through a fender Twin?... those notes on the 1st/2nd string have power & thickness behind them)

So far, I HAVE been able to replicate every other nuance of my regular rig on the Fractal…other than this one part mentioned above with the higher strings. If I can figure out how to address this & tweak it, I’m gonna be pretty happy…

Without posting the exact settings… Here is the Fractal chain off the top of my head:

• Telecaster with Lindy Fralin Blues Special pickups
• Compressor (pedal type).. with medium squash (like a Keeley with the sustain turned up to about 35%.. and the drive turned up to maybe 60%)
• No drive pedal in front of the amp
• Shiver Clean amp model. Set just to the edge of OD (drive set to about 1-2 O’Clock).. but no hair coming through. Presence set fairly low. Depth, Damp, Sag set to about 11 or 12 o’clock. Master about 65% up… Level about 65-70% up
• 1X12 EVM 12L cab model… with SM57 mic model
• Little delay for slap-back
• Little reverb
• Power-amp simulator OFF
• Powered by Tech-21 power engine 300
• Running into an Egnater 2X12 cab

Any ideas on what I can try??
Click to expand...

1. I have problems that sound similar to the one that you're having when I roll my guitar's tone control down to get a dark jazz tone. Whether or not this is the same issue that you're having remains to be seen though. But it has nothing to do with the Axe or with modellers, etc.
A guitar's tone control basically shunts the high frequencies to ground which has the effect of making the bass strings louder relative to the treble strings.
On my guitars that are dedicated for jazz playing I simply raise the neck pickup height on the treble side a bit and sometimes lower the pickup on the bass side.
The only downside to this is that if i use that same to guitar to play some brighter sounding tones, with the tone control cranked, the treble strings will be a bit louder than the bass strings.
Try raising your pickup's height on the treble side and see if it helps.

2. You are doing some odd things in the Preset you described.
a. You're using a cab sim while you're monitoring the Axe through a guitar speaker.
This is not the norm. Normally you'd want to not use the Axe's cab sims in this configuration.
Now you don't have to stick with using the Axe in the normal way it was designed to be used, but don't expect optimal results when you deviate from these norms.
b. You've picked one of the oddest sounding cab sims in the Axe, the E12L.
(If you must use a cab sim in this Prest then try a different cab sim.)
c. You're going though a solid state power amp yet you've turned the Axe's power amp sim off.
Again, this is not the norm.

I suggest that you try to get the tone you're after with the cab sim off and with the power amp sim on.

3. Compressors are designed to squish your dynamics so that the strings all sound at the same level no matter how hard or softly you strike them.
The Attack parameter on the Compresser, if set to a slower attack time, will allow more of the attack transients to slip through without being squashed.
 
I'm hesitant to change the setup on my guitar at all... because I still use my old rig too & I dont have this problem on it...

I hesitate to call it a "problem" because I really believe it can be tweaked out of the AXE.

How about the low & high frequency adjustments in the amp deep edit menu?... have you guys got any suggestions on the settings there... and that entire menu
 
HillbillySims said:
I'm hesitant to change the setup on my guitar at all... because I still use my old rig too & I dont have this problem on it...

I hesitate to call it a "problem" because I really believe it can be tweaked out of the AXE.

How about the low & high frequency adjustments in the amp deep edit menu?... have you guys got any suggestions on the settings there... and that entire menu
Click to expand...

Joey did provide useful advice. Concerning elementary aspects of your setuyp. I'd try those tips before tweaking the amp's settings.
 
If you want to try to solve this using EQ then don't look to the Amp Block's EQ options.
Put a GEQ or a PEQ in front of the amp block (or maybe after the Cab block if you really must use the a cab sim) and try to reinforce the frequencies you think you're missing.
 
Turn the power amp sim on and ditch the cab sim. You should start there. The kind of response you're looking for out of the 1st and 2nd strings is going to be greatly tied to the power amp simulation which you currently have defeated.

D
 
What he said ^

You're running into solid-state power amp and a conventional guitar cab. You want power amp sim ON and cabinet sims OFF. You've got it backwards.
 
What amazes me is that he said he duplicated almost every nuance of his old rig (a real shiva combo) running things with the power amp sim off and using a cabsim into a solidstate power amp and real cab.
 
Cron said:
What amazes me is that he said he duplicated almost every nuance of his old rig (a real shiva combo) running things with the power amp sim off and using a cabsim into a solidstate power amp and real cab.
Click to expand...

+1

I don't buy that. Sorry.
 
Don't really care if you "buy that" or not. I know how my Shiva sounds & I'm telling you...I was able to get the fractal sounding extremely close to my Bogner & pedal board... just not able to duplicate the smoothness of the sound of the 1st 2 strings when I do a moderate to hard attack.

I think its a big plus that I was able to get almost all the way there.. thats a big + for the Fractal.

I'm still tweaking, but havent got it out yet. But I cant believe its not do-able.

I'm going to try some other power amps too... but this Tech-21 power amp seems to sound really really good.
 
joegold said:
If you want to try to solve this using EQ then don't look to the Amp Block's EQ options.
Put a GEQ or a PEQ in front of the amp block (or maybe after the Cab block if you really must use the a cab sim) and try to reinforce the frequencies you think you're missing.
Click to expand...

I somehow missed this response until just now... I'm going to try this, this sounds like a reasonable idea that I havent tried yet
 
FractalAudio said:
What he said ^

You're running into solid-state power amp and a conventional guitar cab. You want power amp sim ON and cabinet sims OFF. You've got it backwards.
Click to expand...


Thank you guys, I was under the misunderstanding that you turned the power amp sim off if you were using a poweramp (which I am)... I thought turning the power amp sim ON was primarily for running direct with no power amp

So when I get home I am going to try all of these suggestions & see what I can come up with... but I have a feeling I will have to do a lot of re-tweaking, because it still stands... I have come very very close to duplicating the actual sound of my Bogner Shiva. Once I turn the power amp sims on & the cab sims off... and look at adding the GEQ in front of the amp model... it will probably sound quite different
 
HillbillySims said:
FractalAudio said:
What he said ^

You're running into solid-state power amp and a conventional guitar cab. You want power amp sim ON and cabinet sims OFF. You've got it backwards.
Click to expand...


Thank you guys, I was under the misunderstanding that you turned the power amp sim off if you were using a poweramp (which I am)... I thought turning the power amp sim ON was primarily for running direct with no power amp

So when I get home I am going to try all of these suggestions & see what I can come up with... but I have a feeling I will have to do a lot of re-tweaking, because it still stands... I have come very very close to duplicating the actual sound of my Bogner Shiva. Once I turn the power amp sims on & the cab sims off... and look at adding the GEQ in front of the amp model... it will probably sound quite different
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's going to sound different, probably a lot different. I would start with a fresh patch even. In the end, I think you'll be far happier with the results though.

FWIW, I would spend a lot of time with the amp and cab before resorting to EQ. If you don't need an EQ pedal with your physical rig to get your sound, it's unlikely you'll need it in the Axe-FX. I don't bring EQ into a patch unless I'm like 99% there and that extra little bit I'm missing is just an EQ issue. If you start the patch with one, it can make things a lot more difficult than they need to be to dial in your sound IME. Once you've got the basic amp and cab tone happening and you're happy with the way it responds, an EQ can be a lot of help to make it perfect. Bring it in before that point, and you're likely to chase your tail for a while.

D
 
HillbillySims said:
FractalAudio said:
What he said ^

You're running into solid-state power amp and a conventional guitar cab. You want power amp sim ON and cabinet sims OFF. You've got it backwards.
Click to expand...


Thank you guys, I was under the misunderstanding that you turned the power amp sim off if you were using a poweramp (which I am)... I thought turning the power amp sim ON was primarily for running direct with no power amp

So when I get home I am going to try all of these suggestions & see what I can come up with... but I have a feeling I will have to do a lot of re-tweaking, because it still stands... I have come very very close to duplicating the actual sound of my Bogner Shiva. Once I turn the power amp sims on & the cab sims off... and look at adding the GEQ in front of the amp model... it will probably sound quite different
Click to expand...

OK. Look.
You seem to not understand some of the key issues of using a unit like the Axe-FX.

1. Any instrument amplifier consists of two main components, a preamp (which shapes the tone and the gain characteristics of the audio) and a power amp (which amplifies the sound that is sent to it from the preamp).
In traditional all-tube guitar amps both the preamp and power amp use tubes.
A tube power amp designed for use with guitar does three main things:
a. It amplifies the sound
b. It colours the sound in such a way that it sounds good through the guitar speaker being used. This usually involves some sort of treble and bass emphasis along with loose damping etc..
c. It distorts when the amp is played past a particular volume threshold.
Small, low powered tube guitar amps, like the Fender Deluxe, have a power amp that begins to distort at about 3 on the volume knob.
If you run a tube preamp into a high powered tube power amp then you will have to play very loud before you induce any power amp distortion.
Legacy Mesa Boogie amps typically had very powerful tube power amps. Most of the distortion a player gets with these amps is done in the preamp.
If you run a tube preamp into a high quality solid state power amp you will get none of the colouring or the distortion characteristics that guitar players usually desire. It'll just be louder.

2. The power amp modelling in the Axe is modelling the sound and behaviour of a *tube power amp*.
It models the tube power amp in such a way that when you amplify the Axe through a solid state power amp (plus a guitar cab or an FRFR cab) you still have all of the *feel* of playing through an all-tube amp.
The Axe has the advantage in that you can mimic tube power amp distortion at *any* volume.
It also has the advantage of allowing you to place effects after the power amp distortion, which is impossible with a real tube amp unless you get into all sorts of unwieldy/impractical extra gear, or unless you're in a studio and place these effects after the mic.

3. If you create a Preset in the Axe that consists of just an Amp Block in the Layout and you use an Amp Type modelled after a real amp that you are familiar with, then you should be able to come very very close to duplicating the sound of that amp by running the Axe into a high fidelity power amp and the same type of speaker cabinet used by the real amp.
I.e. You shouldn't need to resort to using any EQ at all. But you might want to, just to polish the sound a bit more.

4. So, the Axe is really just a very sophisticated preamp with effects.
You need some sort of a power amp to amplify it in order to monitor it.
It's tube power amp modelling is very compelling and when I play my Axe through a solid state power amp I don't miss any tube tone at all.
Still, some people claim that the Axe sounds more realistic when amplified with a tube power amp.
If you do use a tube power amp, and you don't want to seriously colour the sound that the Axe itself makes, then choose a power amp with lots of power/headroom that's made for hi-fi applications.
Lots of folks here seem to like the VHT power amps claiming that they don't colour the sound. I think that the truth is that they just happen to enjoy the way it does colour the sound. They don't appear to made with hi-fi applications in mind.
Mesa power amps tend to colour things much more.

I use a solid state power amp, the ART SLA1 and am quite happy with my tone.
I run it into one or two open back cabs with EVM-12L speakers in them.

5. If you're running the Axe into a tube power amp then for Presets that don't involve any mimicking of power amp distortion you might want to turn the Axe's power amp sim off. I.e. Running a simulation of a clean tube power amp into a real tube power amp might be overkill. On the other hand, if you like the way it sounds then so be it.

If you're running the Axe into a solid state power amp then unless you are trying to mimic some sort of a solid state guitar amp it makes the most sense to leave the Axe's power amp sim on.
 
JOEGOLD!... great response... very helpful

2. The power amp modelling in the Axe is modelling the sound and behaviour of a *tube power amp*.
It models the tube power amp in such a way that when you amplify the Axe through a solid state power amp (plus a guitar cab or an FRFR cab) you still have all of the *feel* of playing through an all-tube amp.

This part was very helpful to me. I personally want NO power amp distortion... but I DO want the feel & characteristics of a tube power amp like the one in my Bogner...

So I fully understand now why having the power amp sims ON is the right thing to do with a SS power amp.
 
Any tips/suggestions on settings within the poweramp sim? Something to get plenty of "Ooomph" of a good tube amp.. but just shy of distortion

Also.. are the power amp sim settings editable per-each preset... or just a global setting?
 
HillbillySims said:
Any tips/suggestions on settings within the poweramp sim? Something to get plenty of "Ooomph" of a good tube amp.. but just shy of distortion

Also.. are the power amp sim settings editable per-each preset... or just a global setting?
Click to expand...

Depends on the amp type being modelled.

Amps that had no master volume control and also had lots of power, like a Fender Twin, would still start to exhibit both preamp and power amp distortion once the single volume knob was turned past 4 or 5. But that was also quite loud.
The Double Verb amp sim is modelled on the Twin. It's recommended that for authentic tone we should crank the Master parameter and control both volume and gain characteristics via the Gain parameter. then you can adjust the actual level with the Level parameter.
So if you want a real clean Twin tone you'd still crank the Master parameter but keep the Gain parameter below 3.5.

Amps with master volume controls where most of the distortion is accomplished in the preamp usually have their Master knobs set to 2 or 3 at playing levels.
Mesa Mark Series ams fit this description. For the most accurate rendition of the Axe's Mesa MK Series amps it's recommend to keep the Master parameter around 9:00 (that's 9 o'clock, not 9.00). Adjust the overdrive saturation via the Gain parameter and adjust the level via the Level parameter.

I don't know the Shiva amps real well.
But I'll bet that if you use similar knob positions on the Axe compared to the knob positions you'd use on a real Shiva it should be pretty close.
 
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