Advice Needed for Custom FR 2x12 Cab

M

Maxwell

Member
Hi Guys

I need some advice in a custom 2x12 setup. Currently I am running my AxeFx Standard into a Matrix GT800FX into a Marshall 1960A 4x12. First thing is I want to do downsize. Secondly I want to take advantage of the FR cab sims so looks like FR speakers will be the go.

The cab I am looking at is a custom-built one from ebay. The other guitarist in my band uses one with Celestions in it and its decent quality, on-par with anything by Marshall / Orange readily available in Australia. The guy said he can set it up with speakon connectors. The details are here;

212 2X12 GUITAR CABINET BIRCH PLY OPEN BACK | eBay

The first set of speakers im looking at for it are Eminence Beta -12LTA
Eminence Beta-12LTA 12" Full-Range/PA Driver

The second are the Beyma 12GA50 (Few guys in here using them).
Beyma Speakers - Beyma 12GA50 fullrange speaker - Beyma 12GA50 500 watt 12" fullrange speaker for lead or bass guitar, organ and loudspeaker applications. Beyma 12GA50 fullrange speakers here.

Any thoughts / suggestions appreciated!
 
Well the Beyma will give you a bit more range than the Eminence (which goes to 8k IIRC) and the Beyma is a little better on the bottom end with a harsher upper mid (2.5k) which can grate a little.If you go for a mix of the 2, then the Beyma is a much louder speaker (102db) so you'll get more of that.

Maybe have a think about co-axials rather than the whizzer cones, the Eminence 12cx looks ok and so does this http://professional.celestion.com/pro/pdf/TF1225CX.pdf

If it helps, I chose the Beymas over the Eminence 12LTA. That little extra bottom end plus the high sensitivity won out. But I guarantee you'll start looking at the "next-level" of FRFR (Co-axials) so maybe save a bit of money in the long run and jump in there, a bit more outlay initially but a saving in the long term!

Hope this helps!
 
Is this coincidence?

Last week I had contact with Celestion about the TF1225CX. This coaxial is not yet available for us. For now they deliver these just to OEM parties. One of them is Carvin.

The good news is that within some time, this year, they will be become available. A pity is you can not demount the HF driver for changing it to a better quality HF driver.


Regards
 
Cheers for the feedback guys. I was wondering why I couldn't find the TF1225CX anywhere.

Looks like 2 Beymas its going to be in the short term.

Dada how does your Beyma go driven by the Matrix? I found I was getting some awesome tones driving a Mesa 4x12 the other day with mine, but was too bottom heavy on most presets. I figure FR will give me the most plexibility with the Matrix.
 
Maxwell said:
Cheers for the feedback guys. I was wondering why I couldn't find the TF1225CX anywhere.

Looks like 2 Beymas its going to be in the short term.

Dada how does your Beyma go driven by the Matrix? I found I was getting some awesome tones driving a Mesa 4x12 the other day with mine, but was too bottom heavy on most presets. I figure FR will give me the most plexibility with the Matrix.
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He Maxwell,

There two routes you can go:

FRFR best to choose with Coaxials but not available in Guitar cab design (yet) and you need to become a cabinet driver crossover expert and read a lot of HIFI nonsens to get it wright. Or buy the boring super expensive ugly PA stuff.

The EVM12L or Eminence Delta pro 12 route. Fits in your cabinets and only serves your guitar freq range. One advantage is you do not have all the Hifi nonsense and it is much more easier to dial in a stellar guitar tone.

So if your a Jazzy or a clean sound enthusiac and like to read all the nonsense out there and pay loads of money go for the FRFR route. I you are a lazy b***erd choose the EVM12L route.

With FRFR stuff you will always ask yourself can I buy something better. With the EVM12L route you know it could sound better. But you don't care because you have already a stellar guitar tone. :) And it is way more cheaper and very very strong. (You also have free fitness lessons cause these drivers are super hevaey)

Till you made your mind up it is indeed a good ideau to buy the Beyma's. Not the best FRFR route but its is good enough to learn the Axe-Fx. And to quote Lightningboy:
Well the Beyma will give you a bit more range than the Eminence (which goes to 8k IIRC) and the Beyma is a little better on the bottom end with a harsher upper mid (2.5k) which can grate a little. That little extra bottom end plus the high sensitivity won out. But I guarantee you'll start looking at the "next-level" of FRFR (Co-axials) so maybe save a bit of money in the long run and jump in there, a bit more outlay initially but a saving in the long term!
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Neither of the transducers you link is full range. Neither will produce a result that is remotely similar to what can be achieved with a well-designed two-way monitor. You may enjoy the sound of the result, but you will not have a neutral platform with which to get maximum benefit of cab sims.
 
Like others have said, the open back cabinet is probably not going to do what you hope it will. You might get a sound you like, but it won't be flat. That will matter to you when you also send a direct feed to the house, where it will sound grossly different than it does out of your monitors.

As far as drivers, I came across the Radian 5312 a while back, but don't have any more info on them than what you can read online.
 
But bear in mind the Beyma's QTS rating is high and therefore benefits from either a large enclosure or a semi open back.
 
I have my beyma' in 52 L boxes. I did some calculations with this weird QTS value. The advices volume was negative in a closed cabinet. These drivers like open back situation. And remember i is a cheap soluion intended to get aquinted with how the axe works.
 
Really appreciate all the advice, but am still really confused. So open back is obviously not ideal with full-range speakers, but may sound ok?

Im sure the cab maker could modify it to closed.

Thing is there is always a set of passive Atomics, but the price of one in Australia is $700, and I figure I could build a decent 2x12 with that money.

I should say more about how im using it. I play in a alternative rock band. It gets heavyish, and the main thing is we are LOUD. Its the drummers fault :). I still like the look and feel of playing through a guitar cab, and do not really like the idea of playing through monitors. Thing is I want to run output 2 to FOH in a live situation. In rehearsal I just need something to pump out at a decent volume. The sounds I use are not that complex, just a decent Mesa RHY, my lead is the same patch with a touch of delay, reverb and more level. My clean is a slightly modded version of the Sultans factory preset, and I also play around with Yeks violin patch.

If I went for a cab with guitar speakers (Id get EVM-12Ls) id have to dismiss going to the FOH? Im trying to make things simple, I dont want to be having to tweak patches on show night. If I went for one with the Beymas id probably lean towards closed back so the sound going to FOH is similar.

TZ I really like the look of the radian, but Jeez nearly $500 each is out of my budget :(
 
There has to be a low cost FR solution down under to try out. If you want to take advantage of all the cab sims start with a powered FR cab and go from there. Trust me, it's been my experience when you try to build something on a budget you could have bought something that sounds just as good for the money spent and you didn't have to do any work to get there.
 
As far as the pre-made stuff goes I was considering that as option B. I would go with passives though as im now using my Matrix for power.

I spose an option would be combining a passive Atomic Cab with a Peavey PV12M which I can easily get my hands on pretty cheap. This would still be a little over my budget.

Have many people combined a passive atomic with another passive speaker with good results?
 
Maxwell,

Reading how you are gonna use your cabinet I advice you to choose the EVM12L. Simple to dial in with a GEQ block for out2. Loud enough and cab sims on.

A good flat fullrange solution will cost you at least $2000. Even then you are not sure if it is flat. Remember that in different rooms and area's you will have a different Freq response (not flat at all). Secondly you are not a solo artist. Your bandmates will kill the joy of your expensive flat response system. So this hunt for a really flat powerfull solution is a bit of a joke in our world. In the studio it would make sense but on stage and in Joe's Garage it is quite a joke. (no offence Jay). In a band situation it is more important to cut through the cream your band mates are making and that YOU enjoy YOUR sound in THAT enviroment.

Last advice is ask your cabinet builder to do some calculations on your cabinet based on the driver you choose. The specs of this driver are rule of thump for choosing closed or open back or a baffled solution. Most coaxials have a closed back AND a baffle to tune down the low freq roll of. Thats is why most coaxials have a closed back

If you want easy go for the EVM12L.
 
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Appreciate the feedback Dada. After reading what you said on the EVM12L, as well as what is being said in the other thread my mind is starting to change. I also spoke to the cabinet builder about the closed / open back and he suggested;

"in my opinion, this type of speaker is much better in an open cab as they allow the speaker to achieve its full bandwidth without colouring from the cab. i use a ev12l myself in an open cab and its superb.... and the bass is huge and tight. The other guitarist in my band uses a 212 open back with 2 ev's and its magic. One other thing i have found is that these speakers are much more sensitive than other guitar speakers (ie celestions) and will dominate when mixed with others"

Ill keep an eye on how the others go, cheers.
 
Maxwell said:
I also spoke to the cabinet builder about the closed / open back and he suggested;

"in my opinion, this type of speaker is much better in an open cab as they allow the speaker to achieve its full bandwidth without colouring from the cab.
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This is so far off the mark as to completely discredit the person who made the statement. Open-back cabs profoundly color the response of any speaker mounted in them, for more than one reason. Anyone who believes otherwise is not a knowledgeable audio practitioner.
 
DADA said:
Reading how you are gonna use your cabinet I advice you to choose the EVM12L. Simple to dial in with a GEQ block for out2. Loud enough and cab sims on.
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No 12" transducer can ever be transparent enough for the cab sims to sound even remotely like they should. This is a direct result of the physical principles that govern the radiation of sound. Those principles have demonstrated a stubborn resistance to opposing opinions. I'll go out on a llimb here and say that DADA's opinion will carry no more weight than anyone else's in overriding them. ;)

A good flat fullrange solution will cost you at least $2000. Even then you are not sure if it is flat.
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Flatness of amplitude response is neither the only nor the most influential parameter in sonic transparency.

Remember that in different rooms and area's you will have a different Freq response (not flat at all).
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Well-designed loudspeakers take account of this and are far less susceptible to room-induced variations than garden-variety monitors.

Your bandmates will kill the joy of your expensive flat response system.
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In order to make such a statement with the slightest authority, you would have to have actual experience with the use of an "expensive flat response system." I have had exactly that experience for years, and I can say from my experience that your statement is wrong.

So this hunt for a really flat powerfull solution is a bit of a joke in our world.
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You are not yet in such a world. Your conclusion is 100% speculation. And mistaken, BTW.
 
After 2 Error455's 5 messages of "The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later." and 3 pages of Page not found. Here my reaction Jay.

Some guitarist just use a Clean tone, a Rhythm tone and a Lead tone. For this the EVM12l suits them. Theoretical you are wright (of course) but empirical your are overhauled by the large amount of axe-fx owners enjoying their EVM12L or similar solutions, with or without the ownhammers and Redwirez. They just say good luck and have fun to the (FRFR) part they are missing. They simply do not care because it sounds good to them and they are having lots of fun and succes with it.

All the other FRFR boyz and girlz should seriously listen to you. But maybe because their is not that much fun on the FRFR site. More and more FRFR boyz and girlz are walking to the other side where "simple" gitarist are enjoying the "simplicity" of their solutions.

No opinions here. Just an observation.

Maybe you can help getting my connection on the FAS server sorted out. And please do not delete this post :D
 
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