Active Mics in a Live Setting

Rane

Rane

Experienced
I like to bring my own vocal mic whenever I perform somewhere. My current microphone of choice is a Sure Beta 87, which is an active mic. Given that it was the first microphone I ever bought, I never really had any preconceived ideas about an active mic being anything special; just about every mixer has phantom power, so no big deal, right?

In practice, however, I've found that a lot of sound guys just about trip when I tell them it's an active mic. Usually, it just a matter of them fumbling over the board for a few seconds while they figure out where the phantom power is, but I've actually had a guy, after I told him what my mic was, tell me that active mics basically have no place on a live stage; that a lot of mixers don't have phantom power, and that I should get a different mic.

I kinda' wrote the guy off as just having out dated information; even my junky Yamaha MG has phantom power and I've seen some well respected acts using Beta 87's live, however it still puts the question in my mind: is an active mic really that taboo in a live setting, or am I just dealing with uneducated sound techs?
 
Condenser mics are great and can have a higher quality sound than most normal dynamic mics. however they are a huge source of feedback and other troubles in small stage situations. because they are active, they are "searching" for signal and usually accentuate the higher frequencies. this can make feedback happen much easier when the stage volume is loud or when the other instruments and amps are close enough to get into the mic.

condensor mics are best suited for low stage volume situations like solos or duos, or for larger bands with drums etc, on larger stages with proper monitor setups.

the beta 87 has 2 types, the A and the C. which one did you get?

the C is a cardioid pattern which is a little more normal and will be better for rejecting feedback in the rear of the mic, so you can put your monitors directly in front of you. the A is a super-cardioid pattern. this means it has a tighter pick-up pattern and will reject a bit more of the sound that enters from the front, but it starts to allow sound coming from the back. so if your monitor is directly in front of you, it can actually cause feedback. super and hyper cardioid patterns are best used with 2 monitors, one on either side of you at about a 45º angle.

as for the phantom power, many mixers do have it, but many also do not. it's not always a problem to run the phantom, but it can lead to complications with some gear and you can't easily plug/unplug XLR cables when the volume is up.

my rule of thumb for owning a condenser mic is to always take a dynamic mic with you that doesn't require phantom. you never know if it will be available, and also if the stage is very small and feedback is happening because of your mic, you can switch to something more suited for live, loud situations.

i have a sennheiser 865 that i use for acoustic type gigs, but i mostly use my audix om7 or an akg d5. om7 sounds amazing and handles high spl, but with it's hypercardiod pattern, it can be prone to feedback if the monitor setup is too tight. the d5 was actually designed to help fight feedback and has a normal cardioid pattern, so i always have that one as my backup.
 
+1 on the differences between cardiod and supercardioid.

I'm not so sure about condenser mics "searching" for signal. There's no compression or signal-hunting going on. Any difference in feedback can be attributed to frequency response and pickup pattern. And you don't need two monitors with a supercardioid mic. Some mic manuals show two in their instructions diagrams, but that's just to let you know there are two best choices for monitor position.

I think it's rare to find a venue that can't deliver phantom power, but as Chris points out, it's good to have a dynamic mic on hand, because you never know what you'll run into.
 
Thanks for the detailed response, Chris. My mic is the 87c.

Rex said:
I think it's rare to find a venue that can't deliver phantom power, but as Chris points out, it's good to have a dynamic mic on hand, because you never know what you'll run into.
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Any disadvantages to using one of these as opposed to carrying an extra mic?

DV016_Jpg_Large_337500.jpg
 
What Cover'd said. Personally, I'd have to really love my mic to deal with running my own phantom power supply. More stuff to trip over or step on, more stuff to get stolen, need to find a convenient power outlet...and it's way too easy to accidentally pull the plug on those barrel connectors. Add in the chance that you could induce a ground loop, and it all adds up to something I'd rather not hassle with.
 
Rane said:
tell me that active mics basically have no place on a live stage;
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Sorry, but to cut to the chase, this "sound engineer" is a moron.
DO NOT use him again if humanly possible. Lord knows what he's doing to your mix if this is what passes as "information" from him.

The 87 is a very good mic for gig work & is very popular amongst professional engineers due to its excellent rejection (it has a tight polar patter) & pleasant "cut" in the upper mids, which is nowhere near as brutal as a 57 or 58.

Cheers,
Mo.
 
i know people like to use condenser mics because of the clarity in the high end, but in my experience, this clarity can cause feedback in the upper frequencies where a dynamic mic doesn't. so to combat the feedback, you reduce the high end, which is the main reason many use this mic in the first place.

again, on large open stages, this isn't a problem, but in most clubs where the stage is in the corner right next to walls and space is tight so volume is loud, i've experienced more problems with condenser mics than benefits. as i just said, i know how to correct the feedback problems for the small stage situation, but it ends up sounding like a dynamic mic anyway with more work :)

*Fractal Forum Disclaimer* The above statements are solely the opinions of the author based on his experience. No recommendations are being made and no facts are being stated. Feel free to disagree with whatever has been said and to formulate your own opinions based on your experiences.
 
I don't quite get the more positive experiences with low volume bands/duos rather than loud bands.. In my experience, some condensers (such as the Beta 87) are excellent choices for loud bands.
Disclaimer: However, this assumes that the FOH bloke has good gear, the monitors are in front of the singer & every send has a 31 band on it.

Cheers,
Mo.
 
I carry an ART Tube Pre-amp (with phantom power) with me at every show... it actually makes my Blue 200 sound ten times better... and "I" can turn it up if "I" want. :)
 
My singer has been bringing his own 87 to shows for years. No one has ever questioned it, either for the phantom power needed, or for potential feedback. It does bring up other "issues", but I wouldn't necessarily consider it bad.

We are all on in-ears. Now that the bass player and I are going direct, all is good. But when we used to have amps on stage, he had a harder time getting a good mix in his headphones. His mic would pick up everything. Oddly enough, FOH never complained about it.

He has to be a little more careful about where he moves around too. This was a bigger issue before we were on ears. If he got too close to my monitor, he would feed back if we didn't spend time EQ'ing my monitor for his mic. Not a problem now that we are on ears. He would also have to be careful about moving too close to the FOH speakers, or at least in front of them.

His vocals also sound incredibly clear and crisp. The rest of us don't match him all that well. Or at least we don't if we don't have the opportunity to get in a good sound check. I did have to change my mic as well to match him at least a little sonically closer. I no longer use a 58. I now have a Sennheiser, which seems to be a little clearer.

All in all, he loves it, sound guys never have an issue with it, and he sounds great.

However, another band I was in had a sound guy once that refused to use anything but 58's. He said his system was "tuned" to them. He was also very hesitant to run my Axe Fx direct. His sound system was also very old, and very crappy sounding, and he didn't know how to run it either. That's one sound guy out of dozens. He's not getting my business any time soon.
 
If you want to use it - use it!
Tell the sound guy what you have and that it's a condenser and that should suffice - if he doesn't know that a condenser needs phantom power....well I hope you won't have to deal with him for too long and will never have to work with him again.

There is nothing, absolutly nothing that makes a condenser the wrong mic for the job per se..... it all depends on so many things. You won't have any problems with feedback if the engineer knows his shit, if you or the engineer positions monitoring in a adequate way and in case of emergency he can EQ the problem frequency ( - with a 31-band graphic eq, not the channel eq).

Far more often than wrong mic choice the problem with feedback onstage is compression on monitors, excessive boosts on channel eq (= wrong eq?), wrong monitor placement, wrong mic placement.
 
i'd really like to see some of the clubs and gigs you guys play that always have great engineers (who are actually called engineers and not "sound guy" haha) and excellent monitors, speakers, 31 band eq's all over the place and enough space on the stage for everyone in the band to do back flips. :)

most clubs i've seen, the stage is an afterthought and the designers know nothing about how sound and physics works. i just like to come prepared with my own range of tools when possible to help make it sound good for the audience.

remember, some sound engineers are actually hired more to protect the gear than to make anything sound good. if they were told "don't turn on this phantom power switch" they're gonna stick to that.

it's true that some use gear like Driveracks and other digital gear to tune the system specifically for SM58's etc. if they know that sounds good and feedback is not a problem, maybe you don't need to use your special mic at all.

to me, gigging in clubs is always a compromise and i approach it knowing that. i'm there to convey my message, but i may not be able to do it with at the volume i want, or use some of the gear i want, etc. i can always choose to not work there again, but as a working musician, sometimes you don't have that choice. it's always good to find out who's in charge and approach them showing you are a kind, logical person with some experience with sound, and explain why you'd like to use this mic at the next gig or whatever it is.

i've created many good relationships that way and can walk into a lot of places and they actually ask me a ton of questions when i'm there to see if they are running the system the best way.
 
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Chris@KatsuKuriMedia said:
it's always good to find out who's in charge and approach them showing you are a kind, logical person with some experience with sound, and explain why you'd like to use this mic at the next gig or whatever it is.

i've created many good relationships that way and can walk into a lot of places and they actually ask me a ton of questions when i'm there to see if they are running the system the best way.
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You tell 'em, Chris! If more musicians understood this truth, there would be far fewer ignorant sound guys.
 
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