A question about Rotary and Vibe

cje

cje

Inspired
Hey, folks.

These two effects are integral to my sound and playing style. I've dialed in reasonably good settings for each (though I have found the rotary seriously lacking compared to my Neo Mini Vent II - maybe someone has a suggestion on that one!), but one setting is puzzling me for both: Mix.

In most (all?) other effects, dialing the mix knob to 100% yields the most effect and you can turn it down from there. For uni-vibe (or maybe the phaser in general - I don't know) and rotary, the effect is maximized at 50%, and turning it away from 50% in either direction reduces the effect. Setting mix to 100%, although there is some influence on the signal compared to bypass, makes it so the effect is basically not doing much at all.

Is this just the nature of these two effects and how they work? So far, these are the only blocks I've come across that are behaving this way.

Thanks.
 
Standard mix law I think. dry inverse to wet (from the blocks manual: "With the exception of a few blocks that use a constant power algorithm, Mix controls the dB levels of wet and dry signals in an inverse linear relationship. A mix setting of 50% results in both wet and dry being at -6 db in comparison to their maximum output levels.". So, with Rotary in series, pushing Mix past 50% intensifies the effect (to my ear) as dry is pulled out and wet gets more intense (I like it around 65%). With Vibe, I'm guessing the effect is diminished after 50% because dry is more of an integral part of the the effect, and is being removed - so 50% seems most intense with Vibe.

Are you running the rotary block in parallel? (which might explain what you are hearing). Post a preset.

I've thought about purchasing a Rotary pedal several times after hearing similar comments about there being better algos/circuits for it (considered strymon) but when I delve into sound samples ... and comparing to Axefx' rotary, I don't hear much difference - Axe sounds pretty good to me - still waiting for better convincing that others sound gooder.
 
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sprint said:
Standard mix law I think. dry inverse to wet (from the blocks manual: "With the exception of a few blocks that use a constant power algorithm, Mix controls the dB levels of wet and dry signals in an inverse linear relationship. A mix setting of 50% results in both wet and dry being at -6 db in comparison to their maximum output levels.". So, with Rotary in series, pushing Mix past 50% intensifies the effect (to my ear) as dry is pulled out and wet g dried youets more intense (I like it around 65%). With Vibe, I'm guessing the effect is diminished after 50% because dry is more of an integral part of the the effect, and is being removed - so 50% seems most intense with Vibe.

Are you running the rotary block in parallel? (which might explain what you are hearing). Post a preset.

I've thought about purchasing a Rotary pedal several times after hearing similar comments about there being better algos for it (considered strymon) but when I delve into sound samples ... and comparing to Axefx' rotary, I don't hear much difference - Axe sounds pretty good to me - still waiting for better convincing that others sound gooder.
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Did you try any of the EDIT: Neo Instruments Ventilator/Mini Vent models? I've been very impressed by them.

I love real Leslie tones, less wowed by the Axe Rotary.
 
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Thanks for that. I'm running the rotary in series. It's the last thing before the cab block except for the looper. I'm confident I'll get there! I've only had the FM9 for a few weeks and each time I go in for a preset tweak session, it gets better and better. As for rotary mix, I really do hear the effect go away as I deviate from 50%, but the unit is packed up right now (first band rehearsal with FM9 is tomorrow!) so I can't dive any deeper at the moment.

Ventris... do you mean Source Audio? Their gear is awesome, but I didn't know they made a rotary. The Vent is all I needed to hear, and the Mini Vent fit my pedalboard perfectly, so I never ventured too far from that. It seems to have a more intense effect than the Fractal Rotary block to my ears.
 
cje said:
I have found the rotary seriously lacking compared to my Neo Mini Vent II
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I'd say it differently because most, if not all, pedals claim they've captured the sound of the real rotary, but they haven't. Working with one on stage is an incredible experience; pedals just don't do well in comparison. I suspect that the real deal bends the laws of physics the way sound moves around the room.

I've used many different pedals going for that effect, and still have a Strymon Lex v.2 on my pedalboard that I alternate with something or other else that I like too. But they don't match the real spinning rotor and drum because most "rotary" pedals are overboard in their emulation, without the subtleties. People like that so I understand the sentiment, but Fractal gives us good controls so we can adjust it how we want also.

My own version of the rotary is attached to some threads so search and I'm sure you'll find some that reflect the evolution of my version of it. I think it sounds pretty realistic and is comparable to the Leslie units our keyboard player would demand we help move around.

PS - Strymon's white paper discussing their technology is useful reading.
 
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cje said:
Thanks for that. I'm running the rotary in series. It's the last thing before the cab block except for the looper. I'm confident I'll get there! I've only had the FM9 for a few weeks and each time I go in for a preset tweak session, it gets better and better. As for rotary mix, I really do hear the effect go away as I deviate from 50%, but the unit is packed up right now (first band rehearsal with FM9 is tomorrow!) so I can't dive any deeper at the moment.

Ventris... do you mean Source Audio? Their gear is awesome, but I didn't know they made a rotary. The Vent is all I needed to hear, and the Mini Vent fit my pedalboard perfectly, so I never ventured too far from that. It seems to have a more intense effect than the Fractal Rotary block to my ears.
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Try putting it after the cab....
 
cje said:
Thanks for that. I'm running the rotary in series. It's the last thing before the cab block except for the looper. I'm confident I'll get there! I've only had the FM9 for a few weeks and each time I go in for a preset tweak session, it gets better and better. As for rotary mix, I really do hear the effect go away as I deviate from 50%, but the unit is packed up right now (first band rehearsal with FM9 is tomorrow!) so I can't dive any deeper at the moment.

Ventris... do you mean Source Audio? Their gear is awesome, but I didn't know they made a rotary. The Vent is all I needed to hear, and the Mini Vent fit my pedalboard perfectly, so I never ventured too far from that. It seems to have a more intense effect than the Fractal Rotary block to my ears.
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Sorry brain glitch, not Ventris. I meant the Neo Instruments Ventilator/Mini Vent pedals as mentioned above.
 
The Rotary in Axe is pretty good. It would take it up a big notch if the horn and woofer were able to panned true stereo. Made a huge difference for me with the old Eventide H9. I don't lean on it that hard so it works well enough for me, though. Vibe is just one of the few effects that anyone has been able to REALLY get right. Its all about the double throb. That being said, I don't lean that hard on it so it works well enough for me. There is obviously some room for improvement, but they are pretty good.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
I'd say it differently because most, if not all, pedals claim they've captured the sound of the real rotary, but they haven't. Working with one on stage is an incredible experience; pedals just don't do well in comparison. I suspect that the real deal bends the laws of physics the way sound moves around the room.
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I'd certainly agree with that. I've only played through a real Leslie once, in the studio, and there's nothing like it. Perhaps I've just gotten too used to the Neo, but like I said earlier, my experience is getting better all the time and tomorrow will be my first band experience, so I'm looking forward to exercising the rotary in a live situation!
 
Some effects rely on the interplay between the wet signal and the dry signal. With those effects, 50% mix gives you the strongest effect. One example is chorus. 50% mix gives you the most chorus-like sound. At 100% mix, it devolves into a simple vibrato.
 
Univibe is a four stage phaser with no feedback, so you will get the most pronounced phase effect at 50% mix. Equal wet and dry signals will give you the deepest comb filtering notches in a phase effect. If you go to 100% wet, you are getting only the phase shifted signal, so there's no comb filtering notches, but instead pitch bending vibrato instead. The Chorus/Vibrato switch on the real units does exactly this. On the chorus setting, it's mixing 50/50 wet/dry. On the Vibrato setting it's just the wet signal.
 
Rex said:
Some effects rely on the interplay between the wet signal and the dry signal. With those effects, 50% mix gives you the strongest effect. One example is chorus. 50% mix gives you the most chorus-like sound. At 100% mix, it devolves into a simple vibrato.
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I generally use a 74% mix for both on the rotary....
 
Yeah the Rotary block doesn't have the same behavior as the Phaser block with regard to Mix. I tend to like Rotary above 50% too. To me it sounds more and more pronounced the higher you go. The Vent and Mini Vent pedals do sound great.
 
Dave Merrill said:
Did you try any of the EDIT: Neo Instruments Ventilator/Mini Vent models? I've been very impressed by them.

I love real Leslie tones, less wowed by the Axe Rotary.
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Will have to try one of those Neo Vents - next trip to the music store! I liked the Lex, but I'm kinda p.o.'d at Strymon with their wonky midi cable implementation.
 
sprint said:
Will have to try one of those Neo Vents - next trip to the music store! I liked the Lex, but I'm kinda p.o.'d at Strymon with their wonky midi cable implementation.
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Yeah me too :)

I've only heard demos, never played through one. I'm not really open to a separate pedal at this point.

I do remember the vibe of being in the room with a real Leslie, a lot, back in high school, when my horn section band was set up in my parent's living room for several years. Truly awesome.

(Other than carrying it up icy metal stairs at gigs...)
 
mr_fender said:
Univibe is a four stage phaser with no feedback, so you will get the most pronounced phase effect at 50% mix. Equal wet and dry signals will give you the deepest comb filtering notches in a phase effect. If you go to 100% wet, you are getting only the phase shifted signal, so there's no comb filtering notches, but instead pitch bending vibrato instead. The Chorus/Vibrato switch on the real units does exactly this. On the chorus setting, it's mixing 50/50 wet/dry. On the Vibrato setting it's just the wet signal.
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Thanks, Mr. Fender. Makes sense!
I’ll need to go back and check to see if I get more rotary effect beyond 50%.
 
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