A last try in getting Tone- AX8 -

RLD said:
Really hard to say whats going on here.
There are so many presets that should sound fantastic via that DRX without any tweaking whatsoever.
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At home It's on low volume, and many presets sound 'acceptable'. The issue was when I took it to our practice studio and wound it up. None of my created Presets passed muster, and I ended up on a BE Fractal Preset for the rest of the evening with the volume way down and dodge the occasional bottle from the bass player. Bit like the Blues Brothers, but no netting.
 
Hugh Jago said:
1. The band plays classic rock from 60s/70s. I play rhythm. Strat/Tele/Les Paul. All set in different tunings.
2. I need to run from clean (opening arpeggio in Doctor Doctor) to some extreme tone in Mississippi Queen.
3. Current Rig Mesa Boogie Mark V. into either single or twin closed back cabinets. (depending on venue)
4. For next week I'm planning on taking a single Yamaha DRX 12p. I'll be setting this up on a mini speaker stand. (better as a floor monitor?).
Thanks
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Start small, don't boil the ocean. Don't take a literal approach to how your rig sounds. I would start by playing with the USA Clean or Double Verb if you want fender sound. Here's some numbered approaches:

1. Start with a blank preset (Initialize Preset): AMP: Double Verb < stock settings | CAB: 2x12 Double Verb type Ultra HiRes -> signal chain all the way through | Are you using AX8-Edit or the panel? DON'T TOUCH THE EQ OR ADVANCED PARAMETERS. Out of the box the double verb amp and double verb cab 2x12 should sound like a Fender with your Yamaha reference monitors.

2. Once the tone of the FRFR reference sounds like a Fender Twin Reverb FIRST, then add a DRIVE: Super OD Drive 2 Tone 4

3. Ultra HiRes cabs all the way the ones in italics (in AX8-Edit) are UR. Try a bunch of combinations

4. Question: Have you tried studio monitors? The FRFR speaker can't fix the perceptive sonic integrity of your signal. I WOULD do a factory reset of the AX8 and try cleaning the presets. Follow up question: do the factory presets sound like mud also? That is an indication that something could be off. It really comes down to sonically distinguishing a recorded tone and a live tone (amp in the room feel). Just a different approach and difference in feel to a degree.

Hope that helps some mate, @Moke had some good points as well to follow up on.
 
Just out of curiosity have you tried it though an FX Return in any decent guitar tube amp? Or through a tube amp and guitar amp speakers? If you did either of those, you'd disable the "cab modeling" and on some/many programs disable "power amp modeling" too .. . Just curious as I listen to the FRFR posts and advice all day long on the computer forums, but I use my AX8 thru a tube guitar power amp and guitar cabs and couldn't be happier. . The few times I tried it thru my QSC K10's (that I LOVE for band monitors) I greatly preferred my guitar amp setup, and even using it through a few of my PA's I really couldn't imagine using it that way without my guitar amp setup. . We're all different. I hope to someday just love the FRFR approach, but nah, not now at the volumes I play and the 'muscle memory' stuff that exists in my head .lol. . Best of luck, Eric
 
you've got issues somewhere, it's so easy to get those tones. that being said...next to a traditional rig it's not going to compare. even if you have FRFR that's loud enough to match the amp they are two different things. one is mic'd tone, one is amp in the room. there are people that say it sounds just like their amps did...and I'm not discounting their experience, I just think they have gotten used to the mic'd tone and once it's at volume it feels right. I get it...but I can fire up the Matchless that's sitting next to my amp, play them at the same volumes and the physical amp and cab is just different. not better, just different...and if you're really tuned into how your cab feels and sounds it can really throw you.
 
ibanezfreak4 said:
Start small, don't boil the ocean. Don't take a literal approach to how your rig sounds. I would start by playing with the USA Clean or Double Verb if you want fender sound. Here's some numbered approaches:

1. Start with a blank preset (Initialize Preset): AMP: Double Verb < stock settings | CAB: 2x12 Double Verb type Ultra HiRes -> signal chain all the way through | Are you using AX8-Edit or the panel? DON'T TOUCH THE EQ OR ADVANCED PARAMETERS. Out of the box the double verb amp and double verb cab 2x12 should sound like a Fender with your Yamaha reference monitors.

2. Once the tone of the FRFR reference sounds like a Fender Twin Reverb FIRST, then add a DRIVE: Super OD Drive 2 Tone 4

3. Ultra HiRes cabs all the way the ones in italics (in AX8-Edit) are UR. Try a bunch of combinations

4. Question: Have you tried studio monitors? The FRFR speaker can't fix the perceptive sonic integrity of your signal. I WOULD do a factory reset of the AX8 and try cleaning the presets. Follow up question: do the factory presets sound like mud also? That is an indication that something could be off. It really comes down to sonically distinguishing a recorded tone and a live tone (amp in the room feel). Just a different approach and difference in feel to a degree.

Hope that helps some mate, @Moke had some good points as well to follow up on.
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It is of great help. I've tried it through my small monitors, but thought I needed to hear it through the same speaker system that I might be playing through live. So the answer is once, and not at any volume. I'll do as suggested and post the results. Thanks
Hugh
 
Ericbr1 said:
Just out of curiosity have you tried it though an FX Return in any decent guitar tube amp? Or through a tube amp and guitar amp speakers? If you did either of those, you'd disable the "cab modeling" and on some/many programs disable "power amp modeling" too .. . Just curious as I listen to the FRFR posts and advice all day long on the computer forums, but I use my AX8 thru a tube guitar power amp and guitar cabs and couldn't be happier. . The few times I tried it thru my QSC K10's (that I LOVE for band monitors) I greatly preferred my guitar amp setup, and even using it through a few of my PA's I really couldn't imagine using it that way without my guitar amp setup. . We're all different. I hope to someday just love the FRFR approach, but nah, not now at the volumes I play and the 'muscle memory' stuff that exists in my head .lol. . Best of luck, Eric
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Many thanks. No I've never run it through the Mesa cabinet. I got the impression that it rather negates the rational of using the virtual Cabinets and microphones and FRFR speakers (if I can include the Yamahas in the same sentence).
I did contact Yamaha and got the full specs of how the speakers would function which was helpful. (great customer service).
 
jlynnb1 said:
you've got issues somewhere, it's so easy to get those tones. that being said...next to a traditional rig it's not going to compare. even if you have FRFR that's loud enough to match the amp they are two different things. one is mic'd tone, one is amp in the room. there are people that say it sounds just like their amps did...and I'm not discounting their experience, I just think they have gotten used to the mic'd tone and once it's at volume it feels right. I get it...but I can fire up the Matchless that's sitting next to my amp, play them at the same volumes and the physical amp and cab is just different. not better, just different...and if you're really tuned into how your cab feels and sounds it can really throw you.
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Thanks Jlynnb.1 . I think you have brought up a very good point that I've been looking to 'copy' another guitarists sounds, rather than creating my own sound. It doesn't solve my mud problem, but does get my mind back in the groove that this is a different amplifier tone, not THE amplifier tone. Two guitarist playing a Mesa Boogie may sound very different after they've tuned in their own tones.
All I need now is to dig myself out the mud.
 
Hugh Jago said:
Many thanks. No I've never run it through the Mesa cabinet. I got the impression that it rather negates the rational of using the virtual Cabinets and microphones and FRFR speakers (if I can include the Yamahas in the same sentence).
I did contact Yamaha and got the full specs of how the speakers would function which was helpful. (great customer service).
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Running through an amp and cab does negate the use of cab IR's but it is a very viable option that sounds great, might be something to consider since you're competing with another amp on stage. If you are going to try with an amp, experiment both into the front on your clean channel and in the fx loop. I have amps that sound better into the front than in the loop and vice-versa. I've also found better success with the amp models using an amp set just on the verge of breakup than pristine clean.

One more thing to consider, if I'm understanding your setup correctly, try running directly from the AX8 to FOH instead of from the DRX.
 
Hugh Jago said:
At home It's on low volume, and many presets sound 'acceptable'. The issue was when I took it to our practice studio and wound it up.
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Fletcher. Munson. Fletcher-Munson. :)

Long story short: dial in your tones at volume. Tone dialed in at low volume won’t translate when you crank it up.
 
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Hugh Jago said:
I use Yamaha DRX 12P. for FOH or fills and EV zlx 12p as floor monitors. When at practice I use the DRX12p, or a studio's JLB passive speakers through a power mixer.
Hugh
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i read somewhere that the best speaker for the AX8 is the Friedman ASM-12 that it feel like a real amp,i reccomend you to go to the facebook AX8 group to see what people use with the AX8.
 
Sonofiam said:
Running through an amp and cab does negate the use of cab IR's but it is a very viable option that sounds great, might be something to consider since you're competing with another amp on stage. If you are going to try with an amp, experiment both into the front on your clean channel and in the fx loop. I have amps that sound better into the front than in the loop and vice-versa. I've also found better success with the amp models using an amp set just on the verge of breakup than pristine clean.

One more thing to consider, if I'm understanding your setup correctly, try running directly from the AX8 to FOH instead of from the DRX.
Click to expand...
Many Thanks I'll try as suggested.
The set up all depends on venue. If the venue has their own system I stick either one, or both, DRX's on short speaker stands behind the band, where my Amp would usually sit. If the band are going to mic up, I go straight FOH, and just use a floor monitor in front and one behind.
 
Rex said:
Fletcher. Munson. Fletcher-Munson. :)

Long story short: dial in your tones at volume. Tone dialed,in at low volume won’t translate when you crank it up.
Click to expand...

That was the starting point of renting the studio and Engineer for next week. get the sounds sorted out at Band volume. Then at least I can find out if It's real mud, or just my crappy programming..
Thanks
 
FWIW: I've had my AX8 since May and have had my share of frustrations during the learning curve. Even though I think I've bonded with it, I do run into frustrations from time to time.

Honestly, the single largest tweak I learned that focused my tone and began to make it "good" for me was working with the Low and High cut settings on the cab block. I have read that many here start with them set around 80 on the low end and around 8000 on the high end. I was doing that and not getting tones I was looking for.

Long story short, now I start with 150 on the low end and around 5500-6000 on the high end - then dial them up and down depending on my desired tone. It's remarkable how much the frequencies that you don't even think you're hearing can create mud and other interruptions in the final tone.

These adjustments really do a lot to focus my tone as well as allow me to make other amp and effect adjustments that seem more predictable.

Another thing to think about: the thing that can most be missing from the AX8 is the "amp in the room" feel. I would say that trying to keep up with an actual amp in the room is understandable, but never really the exact focus of what the AX8 was all about.

With that, your friend with the Marshall may feel just as inadequate as he tries to "keep up" with your tone coming through the PA...

You can't have it all. Where would you put it?
 
Hugh Jago said:
Many thanks. No I've never run it through the Mesa cabinet. I got the impression that it rather negates the rational of using the virtual Cabinets and microphones and FRFR speakers (if I can include the Yamahas in the same sentence).
I did contact Yamaha and got the full specs of how the speakers would function which was helpful. (great customer service).
Click to expand...

Definitely does not negate any effectiveness of the product to me. The way I use it regularly , I have access to about 200 totally programmable preamps, loads of great effects, unlimited signal chains, and instant footswitch access to loads of features including variable gain,etc. I LOVE it my way. . . The reason I was asking if you've completely indicated that you've spent lots of time trying to come up with good sounds that compete /compliment your other guitarist who uses 'regular' amps. . . If you tried my way, then you 'll know whether you love the AX8 but do not like the FRFR route that everyone raves about it.. That's so far what I've found.. However , I have an easy time programming this and am very experienced at all kinds of guitar, pa, and studio gear, and know my wants/needs. I would never say the direct into frfr sounds like mud though , or caverns,etc.. . I just don't like the lack of 'ballsiness' that I am accustomed to. IF anything it's too clean, too clear, too detailed, and a bit hollow etc without the guitar cab/speakers I'm using Best of luck, Eric
 
NightWalker said:
i read somewhere that the best speaker for the AX8 is the Friedman ASM-12 that it feel like a real amp,i reccomend you to go to the facebook AX8 group to see what people use with the AX8.
Click to expand...

My original AX 8 associate has two of those beasts. He loves them, but very heavy and very expensive. I did some research and found that the DRX 12P got close to, or into second place. I phoned up Yamaha and got a very good technician who was very realistic about their, or their competitors products. He was very knowledgeable about the DRX 12's performance when substituting for a FRFR. After further review I managed to pick up two at a reasonable price.
 
hbucker said:
FWIW: I've had my AX8 since May and have had my share of frustrations during the learning curve. Even though I think I've bonded with it, I do run into frustrations from time to time.

Honestly, the single largest tweak I learned that focused my tone and began to make it "good" for me was working with the Low and High cut settings on the cab block. I have read that many here start with them set around 80 on the low end and around 8000 on the high end. I was doing that and not getting tones I was looking for.

Long story short, now I start with 150 on the low end and around 5500-6000 on the high end - then dial them up and down depending on my desired tone. It's remarkable how much the frequencies that you don't even think you're hearing can create mud and other interruptions in the final tone.

These adjustments really do a lot to focus my tone as well as allow me to make other amp and effect adjustments that seem more predictable.

Another thing to think about: the thing that can most be missing from the AX8 is the "amp in the room" feel. I would say that trying to keep up with an actual amp in the room is understandable, but never really the exact focus of what the AX8 was all about.

With that, your friend with the Marshall may feel just as inadequate as he tries to "keep up" with your tone coming through the PA...

You can't have it all. Where would you put it?
Click to expand...

Great info, thanks. It's a wonderful place to start. I'll do just as you suggest.
 
Ericbr1 said:
Definitely does not negate any effectiveness of the product to me. The way I use it regularly , I have access to about 200 totally programmable preamps, loads of great effects, unlimited signal chains, and instant footswitch access to loads of features including variable gain,etc. I LOVE it my way. . . The reason I was asking if you've completely indicated that you've spent lots of time trying to come up with good sounds that compete /compliment your other guitarist who uses 'regular' amps. . . If you tried my way, then you 'll know whether you love the AX8 but do not like the FRFR route that everyone raves about it.. That's so far what I've found.. However , I have an easy time programming this and am very experienced at all kinds of guitar, pa, and studio gear, and know my wants/needs. I would never say the direct into frfr sounds like mud though , or caverns,etc.. . I just don't like the lack of 'ballsiness' that I am accustomed to. IF anything it's too clean, too clear, too detailed, and a bit hollow etc without the guitar cab/speakers I'm using Best of luck, Eric
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Understood, and I'll give it a try. I appreciate the help and advice.
Hugh
 
Hugh Jago said:
At home It's on low volume, and many presets sound 'acceptable'. The issue was when I took it to our practice studio and wound it up. None of my created Presets passed muster, and I ended up on a BE Fractal Preset for the rest of the evening with the volume way down and dodge the occasional bottle from the bass player. Bit like the Blues Brothers, but no netting.
Click to expand...
Here is a vid to watch on getting a good tone.
The AX8 is by far the easiest modeler I've ever used and getting great sounds was as fast as calling up any number of presets.
This vid may shed some light.
 
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