7 FRFR solutions auditioned side by side - my mind is blown

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paulmapp8306

Fractal Fanatic
So. I have tried an Art RCF 312a and 522a previously. The 312 was OK, the 522 much better. This is partly because of the series and partly because of the compression drivers (1" in the 312 2" in the 522).

So I took a trip to the best PA place in a couple of hours drive. I have tried:

a. HK D.A.R.T Monitor. Its OK, but a bit meh for the price. It was the quietest I tried and too mid barky really.

b. FBT 12ma. This was much better. It was smoother than the QSCs (see later) but not as nice as the RFCs or Codas (ditto). It ws not as loud as the QSCs though.

c. QSC K12. I had high hopes hear. It did not live up to them. Very similar to the 12ma, with a slightly more lively top end. It was louder too but that was about it.

d. QSC HPR 122i. I did not like this. It was very similar to the K12, but with a mid spike. It make it sound harsh by comparrison - and the harshest I tried all day. Its not worth anyone changing from a 122 to a K12 IMO - they are too similar - but if you dont already have something theK12 is the better of the two.

e. RCF Art 722a. This was the nicest of "my list". It seemed to have a much flatter response. It made the QSCs seem very "middley" - no bass or trebble detail (by comparrison). It was also louder despite having a spec of 129 SPL (as opposed to 131 of the QSCs).

f. RCF Art 322a. This was the cheapest. It wasnt up to the 722a, but IMO was better than the QSCs. Possible the best bang for buck of the tested speakers.

g. Coda AP12. This was not on my list - In fact Id not heard of it. I tried it because the shop said "If you want flat you want these - there not cheap though". Well I tried them and WOW. Sounded like a real guitar cab. It made ALL the other speakers sound terrible. They all felt "hifi" by comparrison. Too compressed. The QSCs seemed to have a mid spike and the RCFs a md notch bu comparrison. It had a full bass which all the others bar the 722a lacked, and had nice defined highs. It seemed the loudest by far - even though the spec was only 1db more than the QSCs at an SPL of 132 dbs. It is also a co-axial design like the FBTs (which leads to some smoothness) and is a true bi-amp design. This was the one I would take home if I could.

HOWEVER

Prices:

HK D.A.R.T £600
FBT Verve 12 ma £700
QSC K12 £750
QSC HPR 122i £800
RCF 722a £900
RCF 322a £600
Coda RP12 £1300 !!!!!!!!!!

This has left me rather befuddled. The only one I felt I could use as backline (at smaller un-micd venues) was the coda. The others are fine for self monitoring I suppose, but after trying the coda they just didnt feel up to things.

So I know have a choice to make. I can get the RCF 322a (the 722a was not worth the xtra £300 although it ws better - and the the otheres wernt as good to my ears) for self monitoring on bigger stages and continue to use my SLA-1 and VHT 2x12 for backline in smaller places OR save for the coda OR burn all my bridges and sell the SLA and 2x12 to provide the xtra £ for the Coda.

AAAHHHHHHHHHHH I really thought it was either the K12 or one of the RCFs. The Coda RP12 has REALLY put the spanner in the works.

FWIW I think anyone considering a pair of K12s or KPR 122is should have a look at a single Coda RP12 instead. If I had the choice that would be it. It really is better than a pair of the others.

While I sit and try to make sense of my day - heres a link to the Coda for those interested:

http://codaaudio.net/AP12.2-way_coaxial ... red.0.html
 
Re: My mind has been blown apart, and I still cant choose !!

Yeh - but I only went shopping for 1 speaker. I had a budget of £850 MAX which was enough for any on my list bar the 722a. Now I dont know what to do :?
 
Re: My mind has been blown apart, and I still cant choose !!

Well now, I am curious about the Coda. (Thats why I wanted you to get it) ;)
So you would choose the Coda overall. I see your not that impressed with the Verve12ma either.
 
Re: My mind has been blown apart, and I still cant choose !!

Its not that I wasnt impressed - it was the company it was in.

I thought the 12ma was better than the HPR 122i, and also the K12 soundwise (though that has its own advantages with I/P and O/P) though it was not as loud. Given these seem to be the speakers of choice on this forum, the 12ma stands up well in comparrison.

Personally I thought all the RCF speakers were better than the FBT or QSC offerings - as long as they had the 2" compression driver. The 7 series being the best, then the 5 then the 3 (no surprise really). The 722 is the same price as the 522 so s no brainer. The 322 being £300 less is maybe a better option just on price.

Even then some may prefere the 12ma over the RCF - especially the 3 series. As the 5 and 7 are £200 more than the 12ma it may put some off.

Its just that the Coda was in a completely different league. Without being over dramatic it was like the difference betwee the Axe (Coda) and a POD (all the other speakers). That may be a little bit of an exaduration, but it did feel that good in comparrison. It was more detailed, less compressed, more powerfull sounding - just more real.
 
Re: My mind has been blown apart, and I still cant choose !!

Good info in this thread. I know your brain is overloaded trying to pick the "right" speaker, but I almost passed this thread up because of its overly melodramatic title.

IMO, you should change it to something like "Tested 7 quality FRFR speakers side-by-side and..."

BTW, your comments make me feel good about my RCF 322-A. That speaker doesn't seem to get enough credit.
 
Re: My mind has been blown apart, and I still cant choose !!

Well, keep in mind we're all shopping at the lower mid end of the price spectrum when it comes to stage monitors.

Ever tried a dB Audio or Renkus Heinz? They are also more expensive but it shows. Some guy here was using Renkus Heinz Sygma 12s and I think they kicked serious ass.
 
Re: My mind has been blown apart, and I still cant choose !!

Just curious, how did those speakers compare in bass response? The mentioned RCF speakers have a lower rated FR than any of the other speakers you tested. With my 322-A, I have noticed that I almost always have to reduce bass in my AxeFx patches and have wondered if that is why. It does make it work great with e-drums.
 
Re: My mind has been blown apart, and I still cant choose !!

I say make an IR of your current cab then sell it all for the Coda. If it really is THAT good you shouldn't miss your cab/SLA combo one bit. And you honestly can't tell me you're going to be happy with any of the others knowing how much better the Coda sounded to you. But... what if the Fratomic actually blows them all away? ;)
 
Re: My mind has been blown apart, and I still cant choose !!

GuitarDojo said:
I see your not that impressed with the Verve12ma either.
Click to expand...

"Either" meaning you're not impressed with the 12ma too? I know you have (at least) one and I haven't been hearing much raving from you about it.
 
Re: My mind has been blown apart, and I still cant choose !!

hunter said:
Ever tried a dB Audio or Renkus Heinz? They are also more expensive but it shows. Some guy here was using Renkus Heinz Sygma 12s and I think they kicked serious ass.
Click to expand...

I think you meant d&b audiotechnik? There is also dB Technologies
'dB Audio' is not quite clear but since you place them above QSC, BFT etc. I think it must be d&b instead of dB

S.R.
 
Re: My mind has been blown apart, and I still cant choose !!

Chad said:
Just curious, how did those speakers compare in bass response? The mentioned RCF speakers have a lower rated FR than any of the other speakers you tested. With my 322-A, I have noticed that I almost always have to reduce bass in my AxeFx patches and have wondered if that is why. It does make it work great with e-drums.
Click to expand...

Yeh - the RCFs did have more bass than either the FBT or QSCs. Not quite as much as the coda, but close.

I think that for a guitar sound, those low Freqs are maybe not needed (though for clean sounds I think it has some merit), BUT, if you FOH has subs, which will be the norm, and you monitor through the QSCs or FBTs your FOH sound will be more bassy - maybe too much. Im sure the Sound guy will take that out BUT you not going to hear what the audience does - which it to a great extent the point of the FRFR solution.

I think if you use the RCFs it is much truer in the bass region (and with the Codas throughout the whole Freq spectrum) to the FOH sound. If you need to take a lot of bass off - so be it. Its going to sound better off the bat FOH then.
 
Re: My mind has been blown apart, and I still cant choose !!

Ringleader said:
And you honestly can't tell me you're going to be happy with any of the others knowing how much better the Coda sounded to you.
Click to expand...

That is the key point - Im not going to be happy with the RFCs or QSCs am I :cry:

The thing is, I spent £2000 on my main guitar - a PRS. My 2nd cost £1800 (another PRS) and I have a £1000 Tele too. the Axe cost me £1100 (now nearere £1500 with the £/$/Euro rates) so I figure that spending £1300 on the monitor that sounded right is about right. Roughly the same amount on guitar, pre-amp and power/speaker.

Only I dont have £1300 at present.

I dont know how to take an IR of my cab. It will also take a change of perspective (again) to work without the safety net of a real guitar cab - however good the FRFR solution is. Im sure Ill come round in the end though as I dont miss my Amp.

I susspect I will try and save some more (though my £850 may actually go down with a wife and 2 kids :? ) while I wait for the Fratomic. If this is the best solution great. If not I may have enough for the Coda then.
 
Interesting thread. Thanks for sharing.


The Coda is another set of chicken teeth. The FBT is hard enough to get in the USA. The Coda appears to be even more scarce. For me the goal is to have a reference that accurately matches what the FOH sounds like so that my patches sound great on stage and in the audience. I shouldn't have to seek out a speaker that is only hand crafted by monks on top of an uncharted mountain in parts unknown...and pay a king's ransom to accomplish this. And even if I did....I am the only one who will get to appreciate it. The audience will still be hearing normal PA speakers.

I feel certain that a reasonable, USA made solution is out there.
 
Im sure there is. As Im in the UK though, your US box.s are scarce here. FBT and RCF are Italian, DAS is Spanish, HK and Codas are German so there redily available here.

Only the QSC is a readily avilably US solution.

The PA shop explained it like this:

The QSCs , FBTs and RCFs are building for the "band" or "disco" user. A compact OK sounding system. They have to meat a price point, a weight and size footprint and many expectations - including a perceived nice sound. As such they tend to have a lot of compromises, be a plastic box and have some EQ. Some are flatter than others but none are truly flat. There also designed to be used with a sub so sacrifice a lot of low Freqs.

When you get into Codas bracket (along with others mentioned in the thread) more money is spent getting the flat response. They can use better (and louder) amps, better "wave" pattterns to keep the sound even through a venue etc. There designed for permanant PAs or "hire" PAs and are generally the next step up for a band IF they need there own on a more professional level.

You can certainly hear this when compared to the "lower" level of PAs.

The main thing for me is:

If I wanted a FRFR just to monitor myself onstage, with the main sound going FOH then the FOH SHOULD be at the Coda level or above. Also I dont need that high quality myself. For me the RCFs would be the best option having a better low and high end than the other options, but their all decent - its personal.

thing is I want to use the FRFR as backline in smaller venues so I want the quality of sound Id get from a top amp. The Coda does this - the others do not.
 
http://www.directproaudio.com/product.c ... ctid=58342

I use a CF121 M. I paid a bit more, but have been satisified since day 1.
More than likely i will pick up the offering from Fractal/Atomic when it ships in September, but only because my gut tells me it will be worth it.

Thanks for the review. I only offered the link because RH dosent get reviewed as much and is an outstanding solution albeit a bit more expensive.
 
Nice to know the first A/B FBT and RCF comparation.
I'm very happy with the RCF322a. At the moment i have all that i need, but i've been always intrigated to compare what i have with one of the most apreciated FRFR solution at this forum: FBT verve.
It's very difficult to rate price vs audio quality vs needes, I'll do the next questions my self:
-You have to pay nearly x2 to get maximum price solution (the Coda).
¿Do you think you get the x2 quality? ¿...or x1.5? ¿it's worth?
¿Do you think you get some needes uncovered by the rest of solutions? ¿it's worth?
 
I dont quite understand the second question there.

For the first - yes its nearly 2x the price of the QSCs and more (just ) than 2x the RCF. Is it worth it? for the QSCs yes. I think its definately 1.7x better (the Coda is 1.7 x the QSC K12). Is it 2x the 322a? probably - maybe not quite.

Back to my POD analogy - is the Axe 4 times better than the POD? thats what it costs in the UK - maybe, maybe not. Is it worht 4x the price - yes (to me at least).

If I actually had the £1300 the coda cost I would have it home now. Did I pick up the best I could afford? no. I chose nothing as I couldnt have what I wanted. I have to think hard.

If I hadnt tried the Coda Id have been dissapointed in the HPR and K series from QSC and gone home with a 322a. It wasnt worth the extra for the 722a - and my budget was £50 light for that. BUT having tried the coda !!!

Now Im really hoping - despite it being valve and all that entales - the Fratomic will give the sound I want - and a lower cost than the Coda. I pinning my hopes on it. Otherwise I think Ill save for the coda. If my cab gets the same use my amp got after I aquired the axe then Ill sell the cab and re-coupe some of the cost.
 
Specifically for Tom.

Any idea how much this is finally going to cost in Europe? and how big g66s list is (I went on one in November - no idea how far down I am) and if the list will be cleared with the first production run.

Sorry - many Qs and you may not be able to speak for G66s list.
 
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