4 cable method FM9 turbo questions

Question. Will something like the Pyle Hum Eliminator do the same thing as a pair of humbusters with an amp's effects loop?
 
Rumbletone said:
Thanks - yes I understand the humbuster scenario, but that's only applicable for the non-XLR outs - for example, in 4cm that could be using the humbuster 1/4" jacks from output1 or output3. But that's not applicable to the inputs, which are necessarily part of the 4cm. And I'm not actually seeing a scenario where use of an XLR to TS would make sense in 4cm - are you suggesting that the outputs from the FM9 to the amp's input and FX return don't use the output3 1/4" humbuster outputs as recommended in the manual and instead use the XLR outputs 1 or 2 using an XLR to TS cable?

Re "It works well with no issues I've seen. Maybe you're overthinking it", the reason I was asking about the detailed connections is due to posts above that using 4cm DOES adversely colour the tone and the comments that Fractal has apparently stated that the FM9 is not optimized for this use (if I'm understanding those comments correctly). So part of what I'm trying to understand is what the optimal way would be to connect the FM9 for 4cm to an amp - for example, is it using one of the humbuster outs with a humbuster cable to go to the input of the amp (the manual recommends using output3 for 4cm, since it is 'unity gain'), then use a TS cable from the amp's unbalanced FX send to the balanced input2 or input3, then again a humbuster output using a humbuster cable to the amp's FX return (which I think is what the manual is recommending)?

Or, for example, would it sound more transparent to convert - for example, using an EbTech level shifter or using remapers/DIs - between the FM9's balanced ins and outs and the unbalanced input, FX send, and FX return of the amp (which would be the traditional way to connect balanced line level gear to unbalanced instrument level gear)?

And does it depend on the amp - for example, although most if not all tube amp FX loops are unbalanced, some are designed to be instrument level and some are line level and many cases it seems fall somewhere in between and may vary drastically depending on the amp's settings (for example, if the amp's preamp is set for lower gain vs higher, and depending on whether there is a pre-loop master volume and/or FX send level)?
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Guitar > Input 1
Output 2 XLR > amp input (via XLR to TS)
Amp FX send > Input 2 (via TS to TS)
Output 1 XLR > amp FX return (via XLR to TS)

I primarily use my FM9 (and the FM3 before it) with real amps. I've done plenty of testing with 4CM using just TS cables, XLR to TRS cables, Humbuster cables, and XLR to TS cables.

With just TS cables, ground hum was often--not always--a problem. I used an Ebtech hum eliminator which solved the noise. With Humbuster cables the noise was always lower but sometimes still present. XLR to TRS just didn't work with any of my amps at all. Yes, btw, it IS dependent on the amp; we know XLR to TRS worked fine for Leon and some others, but absolutely did not work for me and some others. XLR to TS cables (as was recommended in the previous version of the FM9 manual; I wonder why they changed it) worked perfectly with all my amps and I've had no noise problems at all with them.

Of course, I'm not 100% positive it'll work for everyone but I've yet to have someone I suggested that to report still having ground hum problems. Is it theoretically ideal? I dunno. I just know it's worked amazingly well. In all the cases that I've used and discussed. And two XLR to TS cables are like $30 on Amazon.

In terms of levels, outputs 1 and 2 have settings for +4 and -10db and have their individual output level knobs. I'd think you could send as hot or cold a signal down those lines as you could want. Again, I can just say it seems to work fine.

The FM9 inputs can take balanced cables but they don't need balanced cables.

If you're theorizing on what's ideal, that's all good--carry on. However if you are actually considering trying it and looking for what works, just spend the (fully refundable via Amazon) $30 and give it a shot. I highly doubt you'll be disappointed.

Ironically, I actually don't even bother with 4CM anymore as the preamp models sound just as good as my real preamps. I'm going to be selling off most of my amps because there's nothing they can do that I can't get out of the FM9 and my Powerstage 700. Okay, okay. I'll probably keep one amp just so I still have the ability to run W/D/W if I want.
 
JiveTurkey said:
Question. Will something like the Pyle Hum Eliminator do the same thing as a pair of humbusters with an amp's effects loop?
Click to expand...
Hm. I'm not positive but I doubt it. For me, while using Humbusters did significantly reduce noise, often eliminating it completely, the Ebtech Hum Eliminator killed the noise completely every time. I'm almost positive they work off different principles.
 
Deadpool_25 said:
Guitar > Input 1
Output 2 XLR > amp input (via XLR to TS)
Amp FX send > Input 2 (via TS to TS)
Output 1 XLR > amp FX return (via XLR to TS)

I primarily use my FM9 (and the FM3 before it) with real amps. I've done plenty of testing with 4CM using just TS cables, XLR to TRS cables, Humbuster cables, and XLR to TS cables.

With just TS cables, ground hum was often--not always--a problem. I used an Ebtech hum eliminator which solved the noise. With Humbuster cables the noise was always lower but sometimes still present. XLR to TRS just didn't work with any of my amps at all. Yes, btw, it IS dependent on the amp; we know XLR to TRS worked fine for Leon and some others, but absolutely did not work for me and some others. XLR to TS cables (as was recommended in the previous version of the FM9 manual; I wonder why they changed it) worked perfectly with all my amps and I've had no noise problems at all with them.

Of course, I'm not 100% positive it'll work for everyone but I've yet to have someone I suggested that to report still having ground hum problems. Is it theoretically ideal? I dunno. I just know it's worked amazingly well. In all the cases that I've used and discussed. And two XLR to TS cables are like $30 on Amazon.

In terms of levels, outputs 1 and 2 have settings for +4 and -10db and have their individual output level knobs. I'd think you could send as hot or cold a signal down those lines as you could want. Again, I can just say it seems to work fine.

The FM9 inputs can take balanced cables but they don't need balanced cables.

If you're theorizing on what's ideal, that's all good--carry on. However if you are actually considering trying it and looking for what works, just spend the (fully refundable via Amazon) $30 and give it a shot. I highly doubt you'll be disappointed.

Ironically, I actually don't even bother with 4CM anymore as the preamp models sound just as good as my real preamps. I'm going to be selling off most of my amps because there's nothing they can do that I can't get out of the FM9 and my Powerstage 700. Okay, okay. I'll probably keep one amp just so I still have the ability to run W/D/W if I want.
Click to expand...

Thanks - that's all useful info. Interesting that you found humbuster to not be as quiet as XLR->TS, though if the Ebtech worked for you I suspect it was a ground loop and perhaps the XLR->TS is interrupting the loop. Do you know how the XLR->TS you are using are wired - for example, which of the XLR pins are connected to tip vs sleeve of the TS, and whether the 3rd pin is left unconnected or is connected to shield of the TS?

As for '$30 and give it a shot' I haven't had time to try 4cm since I got my FM3 (in part because the gig I bought it for is all direct/IEMs/no amps on stage so I can't use 4cm anyway ...) but I do intend to try it. I won't need to buy any cables - I can make whatever I don't have. Part of the reason I'm drilling down on it is that I'm considering a rig that uses balanced cables between backline and my Fractal board, then converting - likely with transformers - from balanced line level to unbalanced instrument level at the amp.
 
Rumbletone said:
Thanks - that's all useful info. Interesting that you found humbuster to not be as quiet as XLR->TS, though if the Ebtech worked for you I suspect it was a ground loop and perhaps the XLR->TS is interrupting the loop. Do you know how the XLR->TS you are using are wired - for example, which of the XLR pins are connected to tip vs sleeve of the TS, and whether the 3rd pin is left unconnected or is connected to shield of the TS?

As for '$30 and give it a shot' I haven't had time to try 4cm since I got my FM3 (in part because the gig I bought it for is all direct/IEMs/no amps on stage so I can't use 4cm anyway ...) but I do intend to try it. I won't need to buy any cables - I can make whatever I don't have. Part of the reason I'm drilling down on it is that I'm considering a rig that uses balanced cables between backline and my Fractal board, then converting - likely with transformers - from balanced line level to unbalanced instrument level at the amp.
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Yeah I don't know what the difference is between the XLR and 1/4" jacks in this context. I know that Fractal has mentioned Humbuster technology on those 1/4" jacks but I can't remember details. The Humbuster cables usually killed the hum but occasionally I still noticed a tiny bit. I've never noticed any with the XLR to TS setup. Honestly it could be just luck of the draw and maybe ground loop issues can still exist using the XLR outputs. I just haven't seen or heard of it happening thus far. /shrug

On the cables, I just opened them up to take a look.

XLR end (left to right it's 2, 3, 1 with 3 at bottom center):
Red and white to pin 2
Shield to 1, 3, and (ground?)

TS end:
Red and white to tip
Shield to sleeve
 
Hey all. Thought I'd share a secret weapon I use for noise, if an issue, and don't think I've seen it mentioned. I was and am able to get my FM3, AXE-III and now FM9 Turbo pretty much silent in 4CM, or when used into a return for power amp only with a Friedman Runt and a Fender Tweed Combo. I personally have found when noise for me, it's almost always a environment grounding issue. Sometimes I can help it at the source, other times not. A device I keep in my gigbag that's invaluable to me, and always solves this issue, quickly, when I have it is the Radial Stagebug SB-6. It probably does what some of these others mentioned do but I've tried quite a few and this one always works for me whereas others didn't. YMMV.

I simply put in-line with feed going back to the power amp return usually when needed, and then try different Stagebug settings until right.. Maybe it's not right or sacrilege, but its saved me a few times for sure and has been used for other noise issues with other gear/instruments in a pinch on gigs. I assume this is basically a humbuster type of device.. plus more.

stagebug.jpg
https://www.radialeng.com/product/stagebug-sb6
 
@Linkccr23
You haven't answered a critical question yet: what type of cable are you using from your FM3's output 1 to your amp's FX return? XLR to TRS or XLR to TS?

And I just watched the videos you posted above. Wow! What a monster player! /salute
 
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Stumbled on this firey topic. I have a couple of modelers and multi FX's I love the way the FM9 sounds alone. However when it is paired with my Victory V30 or my Diezel VH4 there is some tone coloration and gain loss. It's negligible on my Carol Ann. I've also A/B'd with a Boss SY-1000 and there's surprisingly less coloration. I don't really gig with the VH4 but I can use the SY to get me through it with channel switching and 4cm effects. Most of the time I'm more than happy (ecstatic even) to use my FM9
 
OasisNinjaBat said:
Stumbled on this firey topic. I have a couple of modelers and multi FX's I love the way the FM9 sounds alone. However when it is paired with my Victory V30 or my Diezel VH4 there is some tone coloration and gain loss. It's negligible on my Carol Ann. I've also A/B'd with a Boss SY-1000 and there's surprisingly less coloration. I don't really gig with the VH4 but I can use the SY to get me through it with channel switching and 4cm effects. Most of the time I'm more than happy (ecstatic even) to use my FM9
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Interesting. You're talking 4CM I assume? Is the signal hot enough coming out of the FM9 and going into the front of the amps in those cases? That's the first thing I'd check.
 
HEY DP! you have helped me so many times on these forums, I love you.
Deadpool_25 said:
Interesting. You're talking 4CM I assume? Is the signal hot enough coming out of the FM9 and going into the front of the amps in those cases? That's the first thing I'd check.
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Yeah 4CM signal is hot enough going to the amp it seems to lose girth going into the the effects return of the amps. Those 2 amps seem like they want a boost pedal or something before going into the return (not gonna try that :p )
 
OasisNinjaBat said:
HEY DP! you have helped me so many times on these forums, I love you.


Yeah 4CM signal is hot enough going to the amp it seems to lose girth going into the the effects return of the amps. Those 2 amps seem like they want a boost pedal or something before going into the return (not gonna try that :p )
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You could try upping the level in the output 1 block...? (Or whatever output is going to the return?)
 
I’ll sure keep trying though, I’m going to go ahead and get the axefx3 turbo and hope this is better:) crossing fingers!!
 
I just tested out 4CM with an amp I just did a metro zero loss effects loop install with and it sounds fantastic. An inexpensive kit amp, KLD amps JCM25, 25 watt JCM 800 clone.
No latency, no issues, sounds freaking killer.

The only piece of equipment I have had issues with using the FM9 with in the loop is the Fryette Power Station, and it is really more of an issue with the Power Station. For whatever reason, if you put something in the loop of the Power Station, if it has a ground lug on the power chord, I get a weird issue where the loop sounds parallel. If I put an ebtech humx walwart on the FM9 (or other device with ground lug on power chord), the issue goes away. But 4cm I can't get anything to sound right with the power station. Helix, Fractal, nothing.

But as recently as yesterday, I had the FM9 setup for 4cm with that JCM25 and it was killer. I use the humbuster cables, and it gets it very quiet with only a slight hum which is easily taken care of with the noise gate on input 3.
 
Deadpool_25 said:
Is it possible it's less of a need and more of a want? :)


So you're still having issues with 4CM? I kinda figured you'd gotten that solved. :(
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Well I just went to using a time line of a h90 in the loop of the fryette ps100 or the soldano 100 which I can completely bypass on the cornford Mk50II or slo100 or fryette that sure helps to be able to get it out of loop when I want to hear the amp in all its glory:)
 
Where to start... I currently own the equipment from the picture and I am very satisfied. As you know, would always want another piece of equipment. I like it very much Bogner XTC 3534 Head which I was thinking using with 4CM. I read on the forums that the head loop can make noise and change the sound tone. The seller selling the head assures me that this is not the case with his Bogner.
And believe me, after reading all these answers in the post, I don't even know what to do. What would you do in my place? Thanks
I even wrote to Bogner to see what they say:

Kind regards. I am thinking of buying a Bogner XTC 3534 Head. I found a seller who claims that everything is fine with the amplifier. I saw on the internet that individuals had problems with the fx loop (humming) so now that worries me because I can't go and try the amp but he would send it to me. Can you advise me on this? Thank you in advance

We never had any problems with the loop including amps sent to us for
repair.
It comes usually down to what and how you connect to the loop and what
is in close proximity to the amp.

If you put a short cable in the loop from send to return and turn the
loop on there should be maybe a little bit more white noise depending on
the settings, if this is the case there would be nothing wrong with the amp.

If you get a hum with effects then it's due to a ground loop, comes from
other power supplies or ground from a 4 cable method, in this case
lifting the ground should fix it. Other units close to the amp like load
IR boxes etc.. can cause that as well, so any other units should be kept
away from the amp.

Regards,

j o r g

​

 

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eldiego said:
Where to start... I currently own the equipment from the picture and I am very satisfied. As you know, would always want another piece of equipment. I like it very much Bogner XTC 3534 Head which I was thinking using with 4CM. I read on the forums that the head loop can make noise and change the sound tone. The seller selling the head assures me that this is not the case with his Bogner.
And believe me, after reading all these answers in the post, I don't even know what to do. What would you do in my place? Thanks
I even wrote to Bogner to see what they say:

Kind regards. I am thinking of buying a Bogner XTC 3534 Head. I found a seller who claims that everything is fine with the amplifier. I saw on the internet that individuals had problems with the fx loop (humming) so now that worries me because I can't go and try the amp but he would send it to me. Can you advise me on this? Thank you in advance

We never had any problems with the loop including amps sent to us for
repair.
It comes usually down to what and how you connect to the loop and what
is in close proximity to the amp.

If you put a short cable in the loop from send to return and turn the
loop on there should be maybe a little bit more white noise depending on
the settings, if this is the case there would be nothing wrong with the amp.

If you get a hum with effects then it's due to a ground loop, comes from
other power supplies or ground from a 4 cable method, in this case
lifting the ground should fix it. Other units close to the amp like load
IR boxes etc.. can cause that as well, so any other units should be kept
away from the amp.

Regards,

j o r g

​

Click to expand...
What would I do? Considering if I had all the gear pictured, test it in multiple different ways and see what made me happiest. I will say this much, that amp and cab better sound DAMN GOOD and WAY BETTER than what I can get out of the FM9 to justify lugging it around. Through my experience and testing, I bet it wont. So just spitballing here because you asked, I’d probably spend some time dialing in my FM9 to recreate what it was I liked about the 4CM and then forget about running 4CM.
Bogner was right in basically telling you their loop is not transparent. I’ve yet to hear a loop that doesnt somehow change things. The Metro loop is probably the best one I’ve used and comes with all the Friedmans AFAIK. To me, nothing sounds like the amp better than not using the loop.
Everyone’s situation is different so dont take my advise as chapter and verse. My advise fits MY playing ecosystem and MY needs. Yours are very likely different.
 
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