4 cable method FM9 turbo questions

Linkccr23 said:
Thank you so so much for the kind words really means a lot to me!!

Maybe it’s one of those things where it’s settings and tweaking overload. And probably need proper lessons on this.

I play a strat with Virgil Arlos and LsL strats and teles , and Guthrie Govan Charvels into two rocks and cornford and Soldano slo 100’s and the feeling I get when plugged straight into those amps feel so magical, and it inspires me to improv live in a way I have never felt anywhere else

I know they have all of these amp models inside the FM3 but I think the FM9 is probably going to sound way better I do have some ownhammer irs and I usually find some kind of cool sounds but compared to those amps it’s so uninspiring. I’m going to have to use a modeler on some of these tours coming up and it scares me to death to have to use this system that I feel so uninspired by, but I know this system is so deep and I have spent 1000 plus hours tweaking with modeling and I think I am at the point where I just need help if I am ever going to get it right:) I am so thankful for all of your help and if you can point me in the right direction with presets or patches I can buy it would mean the world!!

I can’t remember the guy that makes all the presets but I even bought all his packs and still couldn’t find something really inspiring, but now that I am forced to use it I have to figure it out. And any advice is so appreciated!!!

I’m going to purchase the FM9 soon so I can give this a final go and really sink my teeth into it.

If any of you could help either private message me or we can do it on the forum if that’s ok to trade patches and such but it would be so worth it to take a few lessons on this stuff and see if I am missing something. I am sure there are secrets ways to get it more amp like.

How are you running it into a cab? Just a tube power amp and then using a reg speaker cab?

Again thank you all so much for your help!!
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The amp modeling is the same between the FM3 and FM9 as far as I know, and damn near the same as the Axe Fx III...

I suspect maybe you're comparing an amp in the room to a modeler into monitors and that's not apples to apples...
 
The amp modeling is the same between the FM3 and FM9 as far as I know, and damn near the same as the Axe Fx III...
unix-guy said:
I suspect maybe you're comparing an amp in the room to a modeler into monitors and that's not apples to apples...
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I would be using this unit live primarily in bigger clubs and festival stage sound systems and would like to be able to run it with a cab or mission engineering cab and worse case through the wedges or in ears but I am sure I will probably have to find sounds for all these situations but primarily I’ll be happy if I can use it 4 cable method for awhile and get good results using it as a pedal board replacement and back up amp.
 
RevDrucifer said:
You’re a monster player, man!!! Silly good!

Interesting you’re having issues with lower gain tones, I’ve been in Strat land for the last few months and have mostly been sticking with getting gain from edge of break up and barely distorted amps, riding the volume a lot. Definitely no issues on my end with that stuff, but those kinds of tones are really dependent on pickups, too. I’ve got a 7VWH as well, I hate the Evolutions for those kinds of sounds, too many mids and highs and way too much output.

Finding the right IR goes a long, long way, right down to how it feels playing through studio monitors. Sometimes you find some that sound great but feel like shit, or some that feel great and sound like shit. I only deal with IR’s when I’m recording now, live I still use regular guitar cabs and it takes the IR search out of the way…..and feels like playing an amp in a live setting (or in my living room).

I spent 25 years with tube amps and I’ve been on Fractal gear for 3.5, I still have a tube amp sitting 5 feet in front of me and am around them frequently. If you play this stuff into actual cabs and crank ’em up, it’ll feel like the real deal. And in the studio, that hasn’t even been a question for over about a decade now.
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How are you running your fractal stuff
 
Try changing the tube for the loop. You’ll never get 100% wet in a tube buffered loop and if the tube is dying, it’ll be apparent.

Can’t hurt it’s a 20 dollar test at best.
 
Bruce Sokolovic said:
Try changing the tube for the loop. You’ll never get 100% wet in a tube buffered loop and if the tube is dying, it’ll be apparent.

Can’t hurt it’s a 20 dollar test at best.
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Thank you so much for the help but I just want to make sure I’m clear it’s not something that sounds wrong it’s more a coloring of the sound and I think I found out that the analog to digital converters on the FM9 and AxefxIII have better converters than the fm3 so I am going to give it one last shot
 
Deadpool_25 said:
Edit to start with the basic answer: yes. You can run a TS (unbalanced) cable to input 1, 2, or 3.

You can use normal instrument (TS) cables but could get some ground hum.

I've had a lot of success using XLR to TS cables (sourced from Amazon) from output 1 and/or output 2, and running a normal instrument (TS) cable from the amp back to input 2. When using in/out 3, I'd use an instrument cable from the amp to input 3 and a Humbuster cable from output 3 back to the amp.

I've seen a few threads and had a few PMs from folks who had various issues because they used XLR to TRS cables. I have to good-naturedly and respectfully put that at the feet of @2112 (love ya Leon).

Folks had understandably watched is video on 4CM in which he says to use an XLR to TRS cable. It works fine for him in that video and has worked fine for at least some (probably many) people. But it can definitely cause issues depending on what amp you're using (I know this for a fact as I've tried it and had issues as well). In the manual Fractal specifically recommends (in bold iirc) to not use XLR to TRS, but to use XLR to TS.

I love Leon and his channel, and his videos are great and incredibly helpful. So much so that we always recommend people check his videos out when they're learning. But I sure wish he'd do an updated video and recommend XLR to TS (which works every time) instead of XLR to TRS (which can work depending on your amp but can also cause problems).

EDIT: I just looked at the most recent FM9 manual and it no longer says anything about using XLR-to-anything in the 4CM section. Interesting. Rest assured, you absolutely can use XLR to TS. I'll stop short of saying you should use them instead of Humbuster cables but I will say that I've tried all methods now: instrument cables, Humbuster, XLR to TRS, and XLR to TS.

Instrument cable can work and may or may not result in noise issues. The noise is typically ground hum and I've had it be silent one day and noisy the next with nothing else changing at all.

When swapping out for an instrument cable, Humbuster cables seems to reduce noise very significantly, sometimes killing it completely.

I have yet to have any issues with XLR to TS. Seems to work perfectly.

I have not had success with XLR to TRS. It's basically refused to work with any of the amps I've tried it with--it doesn't even produce sound for me. And again I've seen others struggle with it as well.
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I understand what ‘can’ be done - I’m asking more about what is optimal, per the comments about non-transparency. Of course you can drop half of a balanced signal and just connect it to an unbalanced input. You can also connect a low impedance, line level signal to a high impedance, instrument level input. But even aside from noise issues it can cause undesirable sonic changes. It is difficult for companies like Fractal to optimize their products for running in amp loops since there are no standards for them - levels and impedance vary greatly by manufacturer and model.

That said, I can’t think of many (any?) production tube amps that have balanced FX loop outputs and inputs, so if a manufacturer wanted to optimize their gear for running in loops I’d propose they have unbalanced ins and outs for it, together with the capability to switch between high impedance instrument level and low impedance line level. That might give the best opportunity for consistently great results with most amps?
 
Rumbletone said:
I understand what ‘can’ be done - I’m asking more about what is optimal, per the comments about non-transparency. Of course you can drop half of a balanced signal and just connect it to an unbalanced input. You can also connect a low impedance, line level signal to a high impedance, instrument level input. But even aside from noise issues it can cause undesirable sonic changes. It is difficult for companies like Fractal to optimize their products for running in amp loops since there are no standards for them - levels and impedance vary greatly by manufacturer and model.

That said, I can’t think of many (any?) production tube amps that have balanced FX loop outputs and inputs, so if a manufacturer wanted to optimize their gear for running in loops I’d propose they have unbalanced ins and outs for it, together with the capability to switch between high impedance instrument level and low impedance line level. That might give the best opportunity for consistently great results with most amps?
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I wonder is there a way to do this with secondary gear or a mixer or something I could put on my board?
 
Linkccr23 said:
I wonder is there a way to do this with secondary gear or a mixer or something I could put on my board?
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Absolutely - there are various devices available depending on the specific amp and the devices the player wants to integrate with, including re-amp devices (I like the affordable Radial ProRMP for going between balanced line level and unbalanced instrument level, for example), Dumbleators, general ‘utility’ level shifters (Ebtech, Morley, Palmer), buffers, etc. The difficult part is predicting what will work best for a particular setup.
 
Rumbletone said:
Absolutely - there are various devices available depending on the specific amp and the devices the player wants to integrate with, including re-amp devices (I like the affordable Radial ProRMP for going between balanced line level and unbalanced instrument level, for example), Dumbleators, general ‘utility’ level shifters (Ebtech, Morley, Palmer), buffers, etc. The difficult part is predicting what will work best for a particular setup.
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Which would be a good place to start? I don’t mind if it cost a little I really want it to work well so it will be worth it
 
I have some RJM stuff I wonder if any of that would help?

Also do any of you know which a/b/y box would be really good for testing some of this. I have heard the Lehea stuff is really good

Need it also for a dual amp set up I have heard the Mesa stuff is good also
 
Linkccr23 said:
Which would be a good place to start? I don’t mind if it cost a little I really want it to work well so it will be worth it
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Depends entirely on your gear and particular signal chain, and how you use it. That’s why it’s difficult - every amp/setup has potentially different needs. There is no one size fits all, and this is - IMO - a huge part of the value rig builders provide - taking all the gear you have and making it work for your particular gigging needs.
 
Linkccr23 said:
Thank you so much for the help but I just want to make sure I’m clear it’s not something that sounds wrong it’s more a coloring of the sound and I think I found out that the analog to digital converters on the FM9 and AxefxIII have better converters than the fm3 so I am going to give it one last shot
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I only have an Axe FX II, but I was trying to run it for only effects lately and definitely noticed it kind of smears the sound together, so it is not as clear and snappy when running straight through it.

Instead of messing with an effects loop, you could do what I started messing with. Load the amp down and re-amp it. I got a Fractal LB-2 Reactive Load box. I am running my tube amps into that, then into effects units, then into a Matrix GT1000FX to re-amp it. You can have your effects after the amp and not have issues with loops.
 
Linkccr23 said:
Thank you so much for the help but I just want to make sure I’m clear it’s not something that sounds wrong it’s more a coloring of the sound and I think I found out that the analog to digital converters on the FM9 and AxefxIII have better converters than the fm3 so I am going to give it one last shot
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I understand. I believe you are getting some slight phasing due to possible crosstalk/bleed in the loop. It’s at least worth ruling out. I really don’t think you’re hearing a converter issue. 25 years ago maybe, but modern converters from the last 10 years, even prosumer grade ones are pretty transparent.
 
unix-guy said:
I suspect maybe you're comparing an amp in the room to a modeler into monitors and that's not apples to apples...
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I was just thinking the same thing.

And admittedly, I've read the thread fast, but it seems like you've spent some real money in your search to integrate modelling into your rig, and with wanting more convenience for gigging, it sounds like you're looking for a lighter solution overall. But I didn't notice much in the way of just fully embracing the modelling, and getting some quality power and monitoring components.

I've read many posts here of guys running powered FRFR, and others using power amps and cabs, in live settings, and totally feeling and hearing it sound just as good as a mic'd amp.

If I were you, I'd just ditch the 4cm, and go all-in, and focus on getting the right end-of-chain gear that'll make you happy about giving up the tube amps. Many others have done it, and say they've never looked back. (I can't personally comment on that from my own experience because that's not how I use the Fractal stuff right now.)
 
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