Regarding your actual question: Use the input trim. You'll get more distortion again, but it won't sound the same as it's preamp vs power amp distortion.I tried using the 1959SLP amp block with my tube amp, and as soon as I turn off the power amp modeling and sag it looses all its mojo. The obvious answer is to leave it on, but how do I get the amp drive\distortion back without using a drive block in front?
It’s the reason why you use your ears, not your eyes to find the right tone, and what works in one situation can change in another.
Oh boy - another "just use your ears" year eh! - how bout a "+just understand how the amp works" year for a changeThe 2022 "Quote of the Year" came early!
Nah, it’d be “Get off my fricken’ lawn!” But I left that off.The 2022 "Quote of the Year" came early!
The problem is people don’t want to learn that. They like doorknobs and rotary dial phones, simple things like toothpicks and two-knob water faucets and single lever toilets, things that invite jiggling a lever or turning something … heaven forbid being faced with a Japanese toilet with push buttons. They don’t want to read. “Read… is too hard.” They don’t even want to interpret iconography in an interface… the “Snapshot” tool, what’s that?Oh boy - another "just use your ears" year eh! - how bout a "+just understand how the amp works" year for a change![]()
agreed, and not saying using your ears is not important, or best advice in some circumstances, or a good way to explore the more advanced pages - it just seems to have become so much of a catch all mantra round here + suggested to solve any tonal search, but leaves out half the essential story which can sometimes be meaningfully explained with a little effort as you did above and as I often see you and a precious few others do well in other posts. I find it most amusing to see "just use your ears" in threads that are discussing advanced controls - ya, like I'm gonna use "just use my ears" while adjusting Bias Excursion without having the faintest clue what it does and how it operates in a real amp - maybe I'll luck into finding a sound I like while adjusting that control and maybe that's good enough for some, but, given the number of controls in the amp block, and the exponential number of inter-control-relationships, navigating to a tone I seek seems almost impossible with a "just your ears" / twist knobs / hope for the best method. I'll have a much easier time following my ears if I understand what it is my ears are hearing. The simple case above (no MV amp) is a perfect example as the answer to "why is there no gain here with PA off" could be puzzling with just ears for someone unaware of the conceptual difference, but obvious after adding in your explanation of the basic difference between a Plexi/other MV amp... - without some concepts being grasped it's like one giant blob of compiled code and no source code or decompiler to get me some logical ability to make changes. Even taking the example of simple real tube combos: if I have a specific sound in my head and I "just use my ears", I may, unless lucky, buy and sell a whack of tube combos (as many do) before happening onto the one that clicks to that tone I seek (the magic one). I could have likely navigated to that "magic" tube combo a lot faster and cheaper if I had understood more about how those different tube combos worked conceptually as they passed thru my hands - ie when I first started playing I owned 2 fender style tube amps and a couple of mid gain tube amps and went through a bunch of pickup changes before understanding that the higher gain sounds I wanted were mostly determined by preamp in some specific families/brands/models of amps - feels silly to admit now, but, my ears alone were far less efficient than ears+knowledge.The problem is people don’t want to learn that. They like doorknobs and rotary dial phones, simple things like toothpicks and two-knob water faucets and single lever toilets, things that invite jiggling a lever or turning something … heaven forbid being faced with a Japanese toilet with push buttons. They don’t want to read. “Read… is too hard.” They don’t even want to interpret iconography in an interface… the “Snapshot” tool, what’s that?
A modeler isn’t as intuitive as a combo amp, where we’re much more likely to twist the knobs, see where they end up, and remember them. Most of the details and changes that occurred in that circuit was hidden. But the modeler, even when using the authentic page in the cab block, still presents a much more complex and intimidating experience because of the front panel, and too many people have brains that rebel well before they drop into a submenu or pane.
So, to counter people getting exploded brains, Cliff started telling people to use their ears, to help overcome the fear of twisting knobs. They can’t permanently break the modeler by doing so, and in the meantime they learn to experiment.
I agree with you VERY MUCH, it is a mantra, and is a fallback, because trying to explain what is actually happening is mind-boggling, and the myriad of ways to tweak controls is overwhelming and we can’t explain how they interact without chapters of background. So, yeah, “turn it until it happens for you”, in theory, works but we actually could do better.agreed, and not saying using your ears is not important, or best advice in some circumstances, or a good way to explore the more advanced pages - it just seems to have become so much of a catch all mantra round here + suggested to solve any tonal search, but leaves out half the essential story which can sometimes be meaningfully explained with a little effort as you did above and as I often see you and a precious few others do well in other posts. I find it most amusing to see "just use your ears" in threads that are discussing advanced controls - ya, like I'm gonna use "just use my ears" while adjusting Bias Excursion without having the faintest clue what it does and how it operates in a real amp - maybe I'll luck into finding a sound I like while adjusting that control and maybe that's good enough for some, but, given the number of controls in the amp block, and the exponential number of inter-control-relationships, navigating to a tone I seek seems almost impossible with a "just your ears" / twist knobs / hope for the best method. I'll have a much easier time following my ears if I understand what it is my ears are hearing. The simple case above (no MV amp) is a perfect example as the answer to "why is there no gain here with PA off" could be puzzling with just ears for someone unaware of the conceptual difference, but obvious after adding in your explanation of the basic difference between a Plexi/other MV amp... - without some concepts being grasped it's like one giant blob of compiled code and no source code or decompiler to get me some logical ability to make changes. Even taking the example of simple real tube combos: if I have a specific sound in my head and I "just use my ears", I may, unless lucky, buy and sell a whack of tube combos (as many do) before happening onto the one that clicks to that tone I seek (the magic one). I could have likely navigated to that "magic" tube combo a lot faster and cheaper if I had understood more about how those different tube combos worked conceptually as they passed thru my hands - ie when I first started playing I owned 2 fender style tube amps and a couple of mid gain tube amps and went through a bunch of pickup changes before understanding that the higher gain sounds I wanted were mostly determined by preamp in some specific families/brands/models of amps - feels silly to admit now, but, my ears alone were far less efficient than ears+knowledge.
I started my effort toward understanding a while ago - definitely not easy but worthwhile for me so far. After some trial and error I found the vid below (and the Part2) which were the best I could find on tube amps 101 in a presentation style that I could get along with. Still a long way to go / looking for a good book or 2. This site is also useful, as well as Cliff's tech notes, but ya, if someone like Cooper Carter could do a session or series on advanced controls that taught: 1.) The Underlying Tube Amp Concepts, 2.) Critical listening techniques / ear training for isolating and hearing the tonal nuances that advanced controls make 3.) Inter-ralationships between advanced controls 4.) Methodology for dialing in very specific tones - I'd be down for it for sure.
So without ears as the judge, please tell me "tone-wise" knowing how an amp works would help you?Oh boy - another "just use your ears" year eh! - how bout a "+just understand how the amp works" year for a change![]()
What people do you hang out with? Spent time with some Gen~Z kids over the break. They are smart, focused and hardworking. There were a couple of people in their 70’s and one in her late 80’s. Same thing. And all did a lot of reading BTW (the older ones were part of a book club, GenZ deep in taking extra courses over the break). If you are the smartest guy in the room you are in the wrong room. If you get out of the everyone is lazy and get off my lawn rooms there are a lot of other rooms to be in!agreed, and not saying using your ears is not important, or best advice in some circumstances, or a good way to explore the more advanced pages - it just seems to have become so much of a catch all mantra round here + suggested to solve any tonal search, but leaves out half the essential story which can sometimes be meaningfully explained with a little effort as you did above and as I often see you and a precious few others do well in other posts. I find it most amusing to see "just use your ears" in threads that are discussing advanced controls - ya, like I'm gonna use "just use my ears" while adjusting Bias Excursion without having the faintest clue what it does and how it operates in a real amp - maybe I'll luck into finding a sound I like while adjusting that control and maybe that's good enough for some, but, given the number of controls in the amp block, and the exponential number of inter-control-relationships, navigating to a tone I seek seems almost impossible with a "just your ears" / twist knobs / hope for the best method. I'll have a much easier time following my ears if I understand what it is my ears are hearing. The simple case above (no MV amp) is a perfect example as the answer to "why is there no gain here with PA off" could be puzzling with just ears for someone unaware of the conceptual difference, but obvious after adding in your explanation of the basic difference between a Plexi/other MV amp... - without some concepts being grasped it's like one giant blob of compiled code and no source code or decompiler to get me some logical ability to make changes. Even taking the example of simple real tube combos: if I have a specific sound in my head and I "just use my ears", I may, unless lucky, buy and sell a whack of tube combos (as many do) before happening onto the one that clicks to that tone I seek (the magic one). I could have likely navigated to that "magic" tube combo a lot faster and cheaper if I had understood more about how those different tube combos worked conceptually as they passed thru my hands - ie when I first started playing I owned 2 fender style tube amps and a couple of mid gain tube amps and went through a bunch of pickup changes before understanding that the higher gain sounds I wanted were mostly determined by preamp in some specific families/brands/models of amps - feels silly to admit now, but, my ears alone were far less efficient than ears+knowledge.
I did! But I’m too dumb to figure out forums! I’m going to look for the too lazy to read room and try that …@App12 , did you mean to reply to Greg rather than to sprint?