How to improve my sound / artificial sound?

W

WollVi3h

Member
Hey guys,

since you helped me with my topic yesterday and you are all very very helpful I thought I might try to address another topic.

I have the FM3 since around X-Mas last year and I am so far pretty happy with it. I play in a Hardrock / Metal Band. In the past I played through a Randall RD45 with 2x12 G212 (Harley Benton Vintage) Speakers (which I don't have anymore. Bad stuff happened and I needed to sell it... different story) and had some effects like a Cry Baby, Metal Muff, some Rev, Delay etc. I play the FM3 currently through a Headrush 108 with the global eq from the "flattening the Headrush curve" thread which helped a lot. But something is still... I don't know how to say it. Something feels not right? I know that through the Headrush I get the full signal chain including the Microphones from the IRs. But everything sounds always a little bit... artificial? If I try to play some good old Rock 'n Roll or choose a Fender Amp they never have that real tube sound and I got the feeling that every Amp sounds a little bit the same. Don't get me wrong, I have the sounds I like and I play with my band, but I have somehow the feeling that something is missing. I thought, ok maybe the presets are missing something, so I invested in a Fremen Preset pack. They are all pretty good, but it doesn't sound and feel like I play through a real Amp somehow (which of course it is not).

So since I am a little bit tight on my budget right know (we all are - always -, right?) what could help me to improve the sound? We want to go In-Ear in our rehearsal room for band practice soon so better FRFRs or SSD and Cab will improve the sound through that. But at least for playing at home I somehow want to have a little bit of that feeling back. I think what I might miss is that "Amp in the room" sound which I have read a lot. Which might not be achievable through FRFRs or is it?

Sorry if that question was already addressed (I am somehow pretty sure it was) but I couldn't find a solution for my specific (artificiality) problem. Or maybe I just need to get used to that new feeling.

Thanks a lot!
 
Rock Chalk said:
I know you said the budget is tight, which I totally get, but not sure if you’re going to get what you really want out of the Headrush.
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Yeah that is what I had recognized. Is there a threshold which I need to invest to achieve what I want? :D So I am willing to wait and save more money but I do not want to spend more money on the "wrong" things. What would you suggest?
 
sidler72 said:
You might want to try the Fender FR-10 or 12. I got the 12 and it’s probably closest to amp in the room than other FRFR solutions I’ve tried. There’s a couple of threads on the forum about them if you want to check them out.
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Thanks! Yes I already had a look at them. I seems opinions are so so (as always). Some like them and some don't. I think I need to grab my unit and head over to Thomann and test some speakers there and see which one is the best for me. Anything else is just a waste of money and time. But the Fender is a pretty cool option. A little bit big but it might be worth it. I totally like to format of the headrush it fits nicely in its spot and something at this size but maybe better? I don't know... maybe I have expectations which can not be fulfilled which is also possible I guess.
 
Agree that monitoring is super important, the Headrush isn't that highly thought of.
The buzz around here these days seems mostly to be about these two:
  • Fender FR-10 or 12
  • EV PXM-12MP (what I have and like a lot)
You'll find lots of comments about them here.
 
WollVi3h said:
Yeah that is what I had recognized. Is there a threshold which I need to invest to achieve what I want? :D So I am willing to wait and save more money but I do not want to spend more money on the "wrong" things. What would you suggest?
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I have a pair of CLRs which I love, but it seems ordering from them is hit or miss lately. Sounds like you have a pretty good plan to go and try as many as you can and see what you like.
 
Dave Merrill said:
Agree that monitoring is super important, the Headrush isn't that highly thought of.
The buzz around here these days seems mostly to be about these two:
  • Fender FR-10 or 12
  • EV PXM-12MP (what I have and like a lot)
You'll find lots of comments about them here.
Click to expand...
In addition to those, for 8” speakers I really like the ELIS.8 cabs. They are a small form factor, but sound much better than the Headrush 108s. Fractal and G66 recommend the RED SOUND products which is a very good recommendation. They’re also currently on sale.

Also, Studio Slips makes nice bags for the ELIS.8.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/studio-slips-gig-bags-for-red-sound-elis-8-bundle.172170/
 
Greg Ferguson said:
In addition to those, for 8” speakers I really like the ELIS.8 cabs. They are a small form factor, but sound much better than the Headrush 108s. Fractal and G66 recommend the RED SOUND products which is a very good recommendation. They’re also currently on sale.

Also, Studio Slips makes nice bags for the ELIS.8.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/studio-slips-gig-bags-for-red-sound-elis-8-bundle.172170/
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Thank you! I came across the Red Sounds... but the are... well they are really pricey. Pew... ok I think I need to get along with the 108 for now. Its not that bad but it feels: boxy, not like a tube amp, lack of warmth and without that mojo from the past :). Save more money, buy a better speaker. That's my new mission. I hope that a new speaker can rebuild that good feeling I had. The bad thing is, that I don't know anybody where I can try it or have an impression if a better speaker will give a better play feeling :sweat:

Thank you all!
 
the thing for me was running everything through IEMs (In Ear Monitors) and things kept getting better going from a fairly cheap single driver (shure se215s to 425s (two driver) to my current custom mold ones)

I'm very used to the sound of the FM3 through studio monitors, and the IEMs give me that same sound, but it's still a 'monitored' sound

we have no amps/cabs on stage everything runs straight to FOH

i haven't tried FRFR but have a power amp + cab setup, the constraint being it will sound like the cab no matter what (as no IRs are being used)
it's still a compromise i think but the results are decent, i still prefer the actual tube amp through the cab (more immediate/hi end detail/tube thing) but it certainly works

like everything it still needs a bit of work and tweaking but maybe the amp +cab will give you more joy than a FRFR setup
 
You need to hear them before you buy, or you're just aching for a return.
Every opinion you see is just that, colored by their ears, fingers, brain, guitars, rig, and rig settings.

Bring your guitar and your FM3, and plan on spending a while dialing in some tones with each monitor.
That's the only way you'll have much of a clue how they'll work for you.

OTOH, the Fender, EV and Red Sound options are all quality stuff, arguably you can't go wrong with any of them.
It still may take a while to find your sounds on any of them, especially since you're relatively new to Fractal, but you'll get there.
 
Paul Bradshaw said:
the thing for me was running everything through IEMs (In Ear Monitors) and things kept getting better going from a fairly cheap single driver (shure se215s to 425s (two driver) to my current custom mold ones)

I'm very used to the sound of the FM3 through studio monitors, and the IEMs give me that same sound, but it's still a 'monitored' sound

we have no amps/cabs on stage everything runs straight to FOH

i haven't tried FRFR but have a power amp + cab setup, the constraint being it will sound like the cab no matter what (as no IRs are being used)
it's still a compromise i think but the results are decent, i still prefer the actual tube amp through the cab (more immediate/hi end detail/tube thing) but it certainly works

like everything it still needs a bit of work and tweaking but maybe the amp +cab will give you more joy than a FRFR setup
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I also thought about that, but space at home is limited on the other hand that thing will also be my monitor with live gigs. So I need to think about that.
Dave Merrill said:
You need to hear them before you buy, or you're just aching for a return.
Every opinion you see is just that, colored by their ears, fingers, brain, guitars, rig, and rig settings.

Bring your guitar and your FM3, and plan on spending a while dialing in some tones with each monitor.
That's the only way you'll have much of a clue how they'll work for you.

OTOH, the Fender, EV and Red Sound options are all quality stuff, arguably you can't go wrong with any of them.
It still may take a while to find your sounds on any of them, especially since you're relatively new to Fractal, but you'll get there.
Click to expand...
Thanks for giving me hope. Fender looks nice to me and has a decent price tag for me. EV and RED seems to be more high end. I will save more money and have a look if that can buy me happiness in the end :)
 
If you're only doing electric guitar, one of the Fenders may be great.
If you're also using your monitoring for vocals, acoustic guitar, keyboards, violin etc, maybe less so.
 
WollVi3h said:
boxy, not like a tube amp, lack of warmth and without that mojo from the past
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Some of those terms could also be due to the preset or the volume used when creating/playing through the preset, or the cabinet and/or its location.

The 108 is a cheap powered monitor, compensating EQ helps modify the sound but it still is built with cheap parts, and it lacks the power and punch to hang with a loud band. A friend used them for a short while with his AX8 and they were eventually relegated to vocals only because of that. He switched to the 112 cabs which handled the volume but still didn’t have the sound quality. Later he switched to some QSC cabs which were a much better choice, and the sound difference was immediately noticeable. I was using my PXM-12MP cabs at the same time and preferred them for their form factor but sound-wise they were a great match.

“Boxy” can be due to the cabinet design, materials, or placement. Get the speaker out of corners/niches and away from walls and it might improve somewhat. I take advantage of the wall being behind my ELIS.8 cabs to increase their low-end so maybe experiment with placement of the 108 and see if that helps.

Volume can help with “warmth” and “mojo” because it increases the guitar’s midrange. Switching to IEMs will kill the acoustic coupling between the speakers and guitar so you will have to compensate in the presets to replicate the effect of the coupling.

It’s difficult to get “amp in the room” when using IRs and FRFR cabs, but it’s easy to get the sound of an album or mic’d amps on stage at a big concert. The Wiki has lots of good information in the IO and connectivity page. Cliff’s comments in that page are especially interesting and useful.
 
I find that the input pad setting makes a big difference and needs to be optimized per guitar; I occasionally switch to a Tele from something with higher output, and invariably, reducing the pad helps.

And, ymmv, but for me, that's far more important than upgrading your frfr, unless you are at stage volume or higher (~110 db+). I own and use Yamaha DHR12Ms and EV PXMs when I need the volume, but the Headrush 108, which I also own, is indistinguishable (to me and my frequency analyzers) at studio or practice volumes, so I save wear and tear on my bigger frfrs. The sound is the same, until you get so loud that the HR108's plastic cab resonance starts introducing artifacts, but that is loud. So I suspect blaming it on the 108 might be off the mark. However, I'm not a hard rock, let alone a metal guy, so again, ymmv.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
Some of those terms could also be due to the preset or the volume used when creating/playing through the preset, or the cabinet and/or its location.

The 108 is a cheap powered monitor, compensating EQ helps modify the sound but it still is built with cheap parts, and it lacks the power and punch to hang with a loud band. A friend used them for a short while with his AX8 and they were eventually relegated to vocals only because of that. He switched to the 112 cabs which handled the volume but still didn’t have the sound quality. Later he switched to some QSC cabs which were a much better choice, and the sound difference was immediately noticeable. I was using my PXM-12MP cabs at the same time and preferred them for their form factor but sound-wise they were a great match.

“Boxy” can be due to the cabinet design, materials, or placement. Get the speaker out of corners/niches and away from walls and it might improve somewhat. I take advantage of the wall being behind my ELIS.8 cabs to increase their low-end so maybe experiment with placement of the 108 and see if that helps.

Volume can help with “warmth” and “mojo” because it increases the guitar’s midrange. Switching to IEMs will kill the acoustic coupling between the speakers and guitar so you will have to compensate in the presets to replicate the effect of the coupling.

It’s difficult to get “amp in the room” when using IRs and FRFR cabs, but it’s easy to get the sound of an album or mic’d amps on stage at a big concert. The Wiki has lots of good information in the IO and connectivity page. Cliff’s comments in that page are especially interesting and useful.
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Oh wow... thanks so much for that detailed answer! Getting used to the modelling technology is really not that easy. There are lot of opinionated videos especially on YT which might or might not be sponsored and one gets easily sucked down in a whole of opinions and well.. if you dont know it better you believe some of that stuff. I will check the IO page out for sure and I will experiment with the placement of the speaker.

Bobbyoso said:
I find that the input pad setting makes a big difference and needs to be optimized per guitar; I occasionally switch to a Tele from something with higher output, and invariably, reducing the pad helps.

And, ymmv, but for me, that's far more important than upgrading your frfr, unless you are at stage volume or higher (~110 db+). I own and use Yamaha DHR12Ms and EV PXMs when I need the volume, but the Headrush 108, which I also own, is indistinguishable (to me and my frequency analyzers) at studio or practice volumes, so I save wear and tear on my bigger frfrs. The sound is the same, until you get so loud that the HR108's plastic cab resonance starts introducing artifacts, but that is loud. So I suspect blaming it on the 108 might be off the mark. However, I'm not a hard rock, let alone a metal guy, so again, ymmv.
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I will have a look at it. But you don't have a noticeable difference between the 108 and the other monitors you own? So, you say it might not be worth to upgrade it?

rzjd said:
Quick fix. Turn up the proximity on the cab block.
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Never came across of it... I will give it a try! Have no idea what it does...
 
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