Monitor mixing by the band, some Qs? iPad?

Dutch

Dutch

Fractal Fanatic
I had asked in the Amps & cabs forum, but since it isn't a directly Axe-Fx related, maybe this is a better place for it... Anyway.

Lately there have been some great new systems introduced that peaked my curiosity so I'm researching a bit.
Like most bands we have some issues getting good monitor mixes. Especially since in churches we usually have to play really softly... If only there were some affordable and easy ways of having each member adjust their own mix... Of course there was Aviom and more recently MyMix, but both are pretty expensive solutions...

Enter the Presonus Studiolive with Qmix and Mackie DL1608 consoles!
Both have the ability to connect multiple iDevices, making it possible to control monitor mixes from the stage. Some pro's and cons to both systems. DL1608 is cheaper, more compact, simpler to set up, no need for a laptop in between the router. The Presonus can be used stand-alone (if your iPad flips out you can play on), has more control options, there's a 24 channel model, and you can connect iPhones and cheap (and compact) iPod Touch'es for aux mixing!

I don't have an iPad, but some of my bandmates do and use it for Unrealbook and there are some iPhones around also. I'm more of an Android guy myself, but it seems there is no hope for musicians apps to get ported. There is mobilesheets as an alternative to unrealbook, but we can forget about the mixer control apps. So I may need to roll over and invest in an iPad myself...

So: a pertinent question arises: Can an iPad run Unrealbook and Studiolive remote/DL1608 at the same time?
And on top of that Lemur with the AxeFxII editor?
 
Behringer has a system that is getting really good reviews and the price is great. My research is telling me we have a new Behringer to deal with. The x32 board is getting rave reviews also. Being in the repair business, I have seen a ton of Behringer stuff in the past and it is mostly crap imho. However, it would seem that we are dealing with a new Behringer today.
 
Behringer bought Midas, so it supposed to be a high quality product. I like what I've seen so far but just bought a 01v96i
 
My stake in this is being able to mix my own monitor signal. Last few gigs I hardly heard the vocals and piano respectively. It's never great and affects my enjoyment and playing.

The Behringer thing is way more expensive than a Mackie DL1608. A system for four mixes would be $1300,-. Of course we wouldn't need the iPads then. But we already have three of those on stage. It's just if they can pull double duty as musicsheet reader and mixer controller?
The Mackie could do FOH for us too. We can squeeze into 16 channels if need be.

The X32 is the same price as a Presonus 24-channel. That would need a laptop and router... Hmm. Not there yet.
 
one of the bands i'm in just got the Mackie DL1608. It's pretty freakin nice. It will be a lot nicer once the master fader app is more developed. It would also be nice to support ipods/iphones.. not just ipads.. very expensive to have ipads everywhere. Currently we are using it with some powered mains, and the drummer and singer have their ear mix, and I have my own aux for my ears.

we have the full drumkit mic'd with overheads, guitar, bass and 3 vox, and after a few practices we got it all dialed in. I have gates on all the drum mics, well all the mic's to help clean up the mix, comps on a few things... reall nice to have the ability to put that stuff on every channel. You can d/l the master fader app for free to just mess with it. I have my own ipad, so i mess with my own mix on the other side of the room.. cant stress how cool that is, and convienent.
 
Behringer? You mean that Powerplay stuff? Hadn't seen that. Nice integration with a digital snake. But a Powerplay system would be more expensive than a DL1608 already.

The DL1608 could handle FOH for us too and we already have 3 iPads on stage for music readers. The guys that sometimes run FOH for us also have iPads. We could squeeze into 16 channels if needed. We usually do. 2 vox, piano, el gtr, ac and bass leaves 8 or 9 ins for drums, depending on me going mono or stereo. In the EU we're pretty big on going stereo.

dpeterson, that looks like it. It's just my q if those iPads can do double duty and run both a music sheet reader like Unrealbook and a mixer control like Master Fader app at the same time. Or easily switch. I read somewhere that iThingies aren't big on multitasking...

On Android 4.+ you have multitasking with just about everything and by long-pushing the home button you can switch between apps very fast. My wife has a Galaxy Note 10.1 and it can even run some apps at once on screen. The apps have to be built for that, though. That Note is very nice.
 
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Switching between Lemur/Axe and other apps is a PITA. You should try Presonus forum. I just bought a 16.0.2, but haven't even turned it on.

App switching between most apps is super fast, If you just need to set your monitors, then run Unreal book, you'd be fine. Just not sure how well the Presonus app runs in background.
 
Dutch, my band had something of the same dilemma.. Without too much detail, our band "leader" has no idea of what quality PA gear is.. and as the "lead guy" bought a bunch of "entry level" stuff even tho I recommended against doing so, AND provided better choices for same budget. <shrug> I won't mention brand names, but after months of inadequate monitor mix quality and crappy FOH sound (cheap mixer) I HAD to do something about it.

We NOW use a Presonus 16.4.2 console... (would have like the 24, but couldn't swing the extra $1000). We are running 3 Aux mixes to stage monitors for those who don't use IEM's. Two of them have iPads, but I won't let them adjust their own monitor mixes - stage vol is way too loud already, and we don't need feedback wars... IOW - I don't trust them to mix intelligently, so I do not bring a wireless router to gigs.
But yes, I've tested the process and both QMIX and FOH mixer can occur on same iPad, as can switching from sheet reader to Aux mixing. The apps stay resident unless you kill them, so just swap to the app and select it, retrieves running version. The REALLY nice things with the Presonus vs other digital mixers is the minimal number of layers - the Fat Channel layout. It's so-o-o-o simple to use and and easy swap from analog consoles that anyone can make. I took a serious look at the X32, but if I have to adjust from stage (while playing) there's too many layers to go thru to get to that knob!! Sure, the Presonus doesn't have motorized faders, but it does mark fader position, and all board settings, including user tweaked effects can be saved ( and backed up to PC). This is great when returning to venues one plays regularly. Pick a "scene" load and go. 5 seconds 'til sound check.

For IEM's I run 2*8-ch DB25->TRS connectors from console into Behringer P16-I, then CAT-5/6 to Behringer P16-M's. Ch-16 on the the P16-I has the click track from the drummer fed direct to it if we're mixing from stage or via (reverse) snake return if mixing FOH. I usually mute the click track, but drummer uses it.

The P16's are Behringers equivalent of the Avion/Heatback systems, and in the 6 or so gigs I've used 'em the Behringers are just as good (I use Aviom's @ church) for about 1/8th the $$.

From the P16-M, I go stereo out into a Carvin EM900 Wireless, and then into my Westone UM-1's. I do not use the Carvin buds as they DO have a lot of HF. The nice things about the P16-M is the built-in limiter and that one can INDIVIDUALLY EQ EACH channel.

PS: I own the Presonus/Behringer gear.
 
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Owning an Axe-FX, you're already converted to the virtues of going direct Dutch, so why not go the whole hog and use DI'd / triggered / sampled everything (as we do) then feed the same FOH mix back to everyone!
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That's not for everyone of course, but like you, I don't think I'd enjoy not being able to hear what everyone else is doing too :)
 
Chris@KatsuKuriMedia said:
Behringer bought Midas, so it supposed to be a high quality product. I like what I've seen so far but just bought a 01v96i
Click to expand...

Behringer is about to launch (well, early next year I believe) a clone of the Mackie DL1608. It will have 'midas designed' preamps, and 16 track out...so it may be a bit of a step up from the mackie.

I have the Mackie DL1608 and two Yamaha 01V96's.
I have been gigging more with the Yamaha, because I'm not sold on the Mackie yet.
The mackie is in desperate need of some firmware updates (doesn't have subgroups, channel linking, master muting, etc.)

The Mackie is much smaller to tote around (compared to the 01v96)....but I don't quite 'trust it' yet.
I bring two iPads when I do use it, because if your ipad dies...you're in trouble.
I wouldn't say I 'need' physical faders to feel comfortable mixing...but something about having no actual faders, worries me about the Mackie. With the 01v96 (which I mix with wirelessly, using Yamaha's studio manger...on a tablet PC), if my Tablet PC dies....I still have faders....something about that makes me feel better. I 'want' to love the Mackie...but I don't yet.

As far as mixing monitors with multiple iPads...it will work great. The only downside is that with no master mute, it is hard to mix monitors because your FOH signal is also live. You can't mute the FOH, but you can bring the volume down on the master fader....that is the one solution. Only problem is if you need the master fader to be up (because you may be running music through FOH), then you can't mix your monitors without your channels being live in FOH. This is why I say they really need some firmware updates.
 
Nice, thank you.

I get that physical fader thing, which is a pre for the Presonus. However, the necessary laptop is a con.
 
Dutch said:
Nice, thank you.

I get that physical fader thing, which is a pre for the Presonus. However, the necessary laptop is a con.
Click to expand...

Bingo, that's exactly why I don't have a Presonus.
With the Yamaha 01V96, I just need the mixer, a router and a tablet PC...which for argument sake, is just as easy as using an iPad. (it's small, held in one hand, and can be touch screen).
But I still wish that Yamaha would launch an iPad app for the 01V96.....there is a 3rd party iPad app for the Yamaha mixers, I just haven't tried it yet.
I've been using the Yamaha 01v96 for about 5 years now....wireless every night, never a glitch. But I'm a sucker for new and cool technology, so I bought the Mackie. I'm 50/50 on if I'm going to keep it.

Have you checked out the Line 6 mixer yet, Yek?
I haven't, but I may in the near future. iPad connects with ease, still has physical knob (and hardware interface)....but a little more expensive.
 
I've also got the Mackie DL1608 and agree, the lack of faders on board scares the crap out of me if the ipad goes down during a show.
Maybe Mackie could acknowledge the trepidation of not using faders and offer a switchable 4 or 8 channel physical fader interface (don't know how they'd implement it....via the network port?) to use in an emergency.
 
jimfist said:
I've also got the Mackie DL1608 and agree, the lack of faders on board scares the crap out of me if the ipad goes down during a show.
Maybe Mackie could acknowledge the trepidation of not using faders and offer a switchable 4 or 8 channel physical fader interface (don't know how they'd implement it....via the network port?) to use in an emergency.
Click to expand...

Yes, was thinking the same thing.

I'm guessing that the next evolutions of iPad mixers will address these types of concerns.
It's going to take some trial/error and customer feedback until the perfect form factor is discovered.

These are some great technology leaps though....I love it.
 
Dutch said:
Nice, thank you.

I get that physical fader thing, which is a pre for the Presonus. However, the necessary laptop is a con.
Click to expand...

The laptop is a con but I rationalized it this way. We use the Presonus board for our church. We do not have a soundman and I don't have time to train someone nor can I trust them without constant, experienced, oversight at the board. The ability to record the soundcheck to the laptop, take the iPad out to the mix position, playback the band recording and set levels is fantastic. The Axe-Fx is the best gear purchase I have ever made. The Studiolive board is the 2nd best.
 
Mesaholic said:
The laptop is a con but I rationalized it this way. We use the Presonus board for our church. We do not have a soundman and I don't have time to train someone nor can I trust them without constant, experienced, oversight at the board. The ability to record the soundcheck to the laptop, take the iPad out to the mix position, playback the band recording and set levels is fantastic.
Click to expand...
Absolutely... I DON'T even NEED the band there to do a FOH sound check. Playback a song (16-ch live recording with Capture) into Presonus and go to work. Set it to loop and it will play over and over until you are done. The EIGHT 31-band EQ's are great too.. once the mains are run out, leave settings alone. Save as part of scene at end of gig (save as venue name) then recall next time you play there. Ta-dah.. ready to go in under 10 seconds. We store a scene for each venue and it's a snap to set the mixer up (even shows fader positions) even if last gig was vastly different.

Band can come in later, plug in and you don't even need to ring out monitors. It's a breeze and it was a GREAT investment...
 
I use my iPads for so many different professional audio, video and photo jobs and it has never failed me. Perhaps an app had a bug and eventually was updated, but it is really solid.

Having a physical set of faders for the mackie would kind of defeat the whole purpose. I do understand the trepidation, but mostly every other digital mixer relies on some sort of "computer" anyway. I really want to try the mackie out for myself!
 
BBN said:
Bingo, that's exactly why I don't have a Presonus.
With the Yamaha 01V96, I just need the mixer, a router and a tablet PC...

Have you checked out the Line 6 mixer yet, Yek?
I haven't, but I may in the near future. iPad connects with ease, still has physical knob (and hardware interface)....but a little more expensive.
Click to expand...
I didn't know the Yamaha was remote controllable. Lots of good stuff in this thread!
Didn't look at the line6, it looks a bit like a toy. And is more expensive.

I must say the Presonus rep got me first. Pretty solid.

Got some more research to do!
 
I've got the PreSonus 24 channel desk.

I really like it. The mic pres, eq, and compressors are all good kit. They are above the Mackie stuff but not as good as pro level desks. Still tremendously usable.

I have used the Yamaha 01V and I own a Yamaha 4416 multitrack that has a similar OS to the 01V. I like the sound of the 01V except the mic pre's are not up to par with the PreSonus.

Overall the PreSonus is much easier to navigate than the 01V.

I volunteer run sound at some festivals, and I will say the PreSonus is hard to read in direct sun. I have an awning and even then on a bright day, it can be hard to read the desk.

Still recommend it though.

Richard
 
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