Review/Discussion: Retro Channel Stereo Power Amp

paulmapp8306 said:
Id like to try and hook up with MNG sometime soon. While I work in Belfast, I have a house (and a family) in Nottingham with is an hour or so from MNGs location. That would provide an interesting direct A/B comparrison of the RC and Matrix. Shame the Fryette isnt quite available yet. Im home roughly one weekend in 3/4 so if thats manageable from MNGs POV I ll try and sort something.
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That would be cool!
 
The behaviour of a small band of fervent Matrix supporters/promoters on this site has put me off their product on principle now.*
 
MNG said:
The behaviour of a small band of fervent Matrix supporters/promoters on this site has put me off their product on principle now.*
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I know exactly what you mean, and I'm starting to feel the same way, which is a shame really, as the products look really appealing quality and price wise and the Matrix guys seem to offer great service and support.

Right now I'm trying to sit on my hands and not buy a RCF set until the Matrix active wedges and Atomic CLR become available (if ever...) so I can check the reviews and perhaps try all 3 options before committing.

It just really bugs me that a certain member here in particular feels the need to sing the praises for Matrix in almost every single amplification thread, even the ones completely unrelated to Matrix, without having any first hand knowledge and more often than not without having the facts straight.
Furthermore there is always some sort of pointing fingers at or slagging of the other product in question - again without any first hand experience.
We've gone through this a number of times now including the lectures about why the RCF wedges were inferior to the Matrix wedges, these lectures were given at a time where the Matrix wedges were still in development and the arguments were not build upon knowledge and facts but build upon logic so bend and twisted that it was simply unbelievable - all so the member in question could have it both ways.
At that time I warned the member that he risked loosing his credibility on this board which would be a shame - but that's exactly what has happening now - IMO anyway - and in the process he is turning at least some of us off Matrix products.

For the record I wish nothing but success for Matrix, and if there is a universal praise for the Matrix wedge as clearly superior to the RCF and Atomic offerings when people get to A/B/C test them, then I'm in but if the field is somewhat even I'll probably go with one of the other products, for the reasons stated earlier even though I'm in Europe and close to Matrix.
 
I hear you guys, and feel some of the same.

I will say though, if you ever talk to Matrix directly (Matt) they are super nice folks.
 
Sorry again guys, I really did not mean to come over all pro Matrix on this one. I have stated several times, Im interested in the RC as well, and that I didnt see the Matrix as the main competitor in this case (re my observations/thoughts) but the Fryette.

I honestly thought I was making general comments on my own thoughts, and that this thread was a discussion threas (as per the title). I made comments on thoughst about published specs - and made it perfectly clear sound/tone wasnt being discussed and therefore I wasnt comparing products as such - just a few thoughts. I also gave pros and cons for all the products even then - I wasnt just slagging off the RC as seems to be the opinion. I openly stated the sound may be fantastic - and would be enough for some users to overcome the other issues(or non issues for some). Thats true even for me (though I still dont like the weight personally).

Once it became obvious my comments were being taken in a different way I apologised - tried to explain - and sadly (I actually felt bad I was being taken out of the context I intended) backed out of the discussion.

I honestly dont know what else I can say - appart from keep opinions to myself, which is a shame as I enjoy discussions and try to see everyones POV, while also giving mine (whether I agree on a point or not - or have a completely different outlook to others).

I will catagorically say (as I have in the past), I have nothing to do with Matrix as such. Yes I took one of their amps early on, yes I provided feedback, and yes I believe they have a great product and have "spread the news". That doesnt mean its the be all, or that other options exist that are better for other people, nor does it mean that something better wont come along for me. i will also apologise to Lance if he has taken any offence from my post as I meant no disrespect to him, his design, or his product. I just made a few observations based on published "specs" on THREE different options (not just the Matrix and RC whcih again seems to be the impression), though some phrases I used (such as missed the boat) were maybe not the best - nor really what I meant (I guess).
 
Just read through the thread again, and Im really not happy. not in an angry way, but a sad way.

I am a logical guy, and I do base things on logic with facts knowm - and I am guilty of arriving at conclusions via this method when it has not been possible for me to try things. Personally I think its a perfectly valid approach - as long as its clear thats how conclusions have been arrived at. Its obvious that others dont feel the same. Thats a shame - I enjoy discussions and debates (as I have said) regardless of the topic.

I had the same thought processes before I even knew about Matrix as a company - and followed the same thought processes ro arrive at conclusions prior to the Matrix.

Its not really fair for Matrix as a company to suffer any negativity from comments I make - just as my personaly posts wouldnt lead to someone not knowing anything about the company to form opinions on them (they may or may not lead to them trying a Matrix product - though thats different).

Ultimately at present I feel I have to leave the Forum. My thoughts/comments are not being taken in the way I intended (the faceless internet can lead to that), I do not wish to offend anyone, and when my posts activly impact on other peoples livelyhood I need to back away.

Its a shame as a great part of my online life for the past 4 years has been here - I think the forus is filled wioth wonderfull people, who will help at the drop of a hat, and whos general behaviour is fantastic. I feel really teary that I seem to no longer come accross in the same manour.

I will be around from time to time to pick up firmware updates for my AFX of course, and it will be difficult not to join in - but I feel I must resist.

Once more - sorry if I have offended anyone in this forum - really really wasnt intended.

Paul
 
IMHO there's no need for excuses at this point at all. Your posts were careful and it's a discussion forum after all. Yes, tactically maybe not the best place to post your thoughts in this particular thread but that doesn't justify the recent personal attacks at all. And all this has nothing to do with Matrix as a company, or Retro.
 
paulmapp8306 said:
Just read through the thread again, and Im really not happy. not in an angry way, but a sad way.

I am a logical guy, and I do base things on logic with facts knowm - and I am guilty of arriving at conclusions via this method when it has not been possible for me to try things. Personally I think its a perfectly valid approach - as long as its clear thats how conclusions have been arrived at. Its obvious that others dont feel the same. Thats a shame - I enjoy discussions and debates (as I have said) regardless of the topic.

I had the same thought processes before I even knew about Matrix as a company - and followed the same thought processes ro arrive at conclusions prior to the Matrix.

Its not really fair for Matrix as a company to suffer any negativity from comments I make - just as my personaly posts wouldnt lead to someone not knowing anything about the company to form opinions on them (they may or may not lead to them trying a Matrix product - though thats different).

Ultimately at present I feel I have to leave the Forum. My thoughts/comments are not being taken in the way I intended (the faceless internet can lead to that), I do not wish to offend anyone, and when my posts activly impact on other peoples livelyhood I need to back away.

Its a shame as a great part of my online life for the past 4 years has been here - I think the forus is filled wioth wonderfull people, who will help at the drop of a hat, and whos general behaviour is fantastic. I feel really teary that I seem to no longer come accross in the same manour.

I will be around from time to time to pick up firmware updates for my AFX of course, and it will be difficult not to join in - but I feel I must resist.

Once more - sorry if I have offended anyone in this forum - really really wasnt intended.

Paul
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Your not the first and will not be the last making this decision. It is just a normal thing with forums.
I gave up sharing my thoughts or advising people here (who I do not personally known) a long time ago and stick to PM's.

Good luck Paul!
 
I really didn't take Paul's comments negatively at all. They seemed to me to just be an objective assessment of how the Retro Channel is positioned compared to competing products and the challenge it faces against other products.

I don't recall seeing any commentary about the quality of the product or its suitability to purpose.

As a potential buyer of these products, I'd say the commentary was spot-on.
 
I'd prefer if commentators about different products wanted their opinions to carry weight... that they try the gear in question first before they editorialize on position in the market. If you don't know how something works or sounds firsthand, you don't know how the product is positioned in any real sense.

Posting positing statements - ala Paul *again* saying that Retro is competing with Fryette - holds zero weight with me. He's not tried either the Fryette or the Retro Channel. There are a slew of poweramps available on the market. Not all of them are "Matrix" products. Talk about them on Matrix threads. This is not. For example, find *one* Matrix thread I have posted on with similar statements. Go ahead. (Hint: I haven't).

Yes, it is really just conversation. I don't begrudge anyone their opinion; but some hold weight, some do not. Try what you are talking about, then talk about it seems a pretty obvious way to handle yourself.

But hey, it is just conversation... no harm, no foul. I'd like to see more conversation; and from different folks than well versed Matrix enthusiasts. Especially one's with as many posts in this thread about Retro Channel as anyone else does and whom has made the point multiple times that Matrix isn't even - in his opinion - a competing product.

When in a hole, stop digging. ;)
 
Paul mentions that his comments were based on features and specs. I think this has merit. Many product buying decisions are made based on published features and specs. However, I agree with Scott that it's pretty much impossible to form a full and accurate opinion on a product without having real world time with it. There are things you don't even realize that you don't know about, until you try it out. Yet, there are also those who take something for a test run and make a final purchase decision without fully understanding or appreciating the capabilities of a product. I would hazard a guess that Fractal has seen more than a few Axe-FX returns from this type of evaluation.

I think the problem is context. "Information" used in context has value because it's understood (information being either features/specs or real world test results). It stays within it's box, so to speak. The real danger is with conclusions that are made using information out of context. These can be downright dangerous. They are misleading.

For example, "Amp 'A' is solid state so it must have a flat response" or "Amp 'B' is tubes so it must be coloured", are both dangerous conclusions drawn from a feature comparison. Both solid state and tube amps can be designed to be linear or non-linear. On the other side of the coin drawing the conclusion that "I'm going to like this product because Person 'C' gave it a really good review and they have a great reputation as a tester" can also be dangerous. Their tastes and your tastes may be different. What they value highly and what you value highly may differ.

I believe we need it all, features, specs and real-world test results, to fully evaluate and assess a product. However, I believe that most of all we need to keep the information we receive in context, and only draw the conclusions that are legitimate based on the context we have.

Sadly, many/most of the product decisions we make are done with limited information.

Terry.
 
Are people seriously saying that they wouldn't buy any given product based solely on the behaviour of folks on an internet forum? Classic! :?
 
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Meh. Drama.

I'm not mad at Paul. I'm not upset with Paul. I have no issue with his opinions; we can't all agree on everything all the time.

No one's asked Paul to leave. There's no merit nor necessity to get into fits over these things.

IMHO, the features and obvious things to discuss are being discussed. I find it distasteful that a thread about one brand of power amp (or speaker) seems to have the same set of folks pop in with the Matrix this, Matrix that. It's too often seen, it's always the same people. I think it's been over done and isn't necessary.

You can say - as Paul as multiple times - that the Retro Channel's no 'competition' for the Matrix but that's silly. You are in market for a power amp, you look at power amps. No one's been able to compare/contrast them though. The Fryette isn't even on the market. So if Retro Channel 'missed the boat' as Paul put it, well, it seems facetious to say that because one power amp is shipping and under a hand's on review here and one isn't yet even available. So if the Fryette is the 'main' competition for the Retro Channel; it would be more logical to say that the Fryette has 'missed the boat'... no?

No, that's not what he said; and that's not what he was implying. He was clearly interjecting Matrix by positioning it in a marketing sense. That's not discussing features.

So let's not beat around the bush. If you act poorly and are called out for it, just stop doing it. You don't need to post Matrix amps on every single amp related thread on this and any number of other forums. At some point, other people will notice it.

There's no drama to be had. No one is being persecuted, there is no victim here. I do not like what Paul was doing and I called it out. So what. I like Paul, I respect Paul but I do not feel that his posts on this thread were in the best spirit. He's posted that his intentions were good.

So we agree to disagree and move on. No ill will. No grudge. No issue.
 
paulmapp8306 said:
Just read through the thread again, and Im really not happy. not in an angry way, but a sad way.

I am a logical guy, and I do base things on logic with facts knowm - and I am guilty of arriving at conclusions via this method when it has not been possible for me to try things. Personally I think its a perfectly valid approach - as long as its clear thats how conclusions have been arrived at. Its obvious that others dont feel the same. Thats a shame - I enjoy discussions and debates (as I have said) regardless of the topic.

I had the same thought processes before I even knew about Matrix as a company - and followed the same thought processes ro arrive at conclusions prior to the Matrix.

Its not really fair for Matrix as a company to suffer any negativity from comments I make - just as my personaly posts wouldnt lead to someone not knowing anything about the company to form opinions on them (they may or may not lead to them trying a Matrix product - though thats different).

Ultimately at present I feel I have to leave the Forum. My thoughts/comments are not being taken in the way I intended (the faceless internet can lead to that), I do not wish to offend anyone, and when my posts activly impact on other peoples livelyhood I need to back away.

Its a shame as a great part of my online life for the past 4 years has been here - I think the forus is filled wioth wonderfull people, who will help at the drop of a hat, and whos general behaviour is fantastic. I feel really teary that I seem to no longer come accross in the same manour.

I will be around from time to time to pick up firmware updates for my AFX of course, and it will be difficult not to join in - but I feel I must resist.

Once more - sorry if I have offended anyone in this forum - really really wasnt intended.

Paul
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Paul,
I'm sure you are a really nice guy and mean absolutely no harm or disrespect to anybody. I can tell that you are genuinely in love with your Matrix product, which is good for you, and I suspect generally a really good product.
Also I don't want you to leave this or any other forum, that you enjoy participating in, I have no personal issues with you, but I do reserve the right to point out if I think you are making claims that are speculation at the very best or if you are editorializing on a subject without first hand experience.
In this thread it was clearly agenda driven and you were called out for it.
I'm sure you can see how this is important as internet speculation quickly turns into "internet facts", and this can affect other forumites buying decisions and small manufactures livelihood. If you ever find me in breach of this, I invite you to hold me to it.
RB
 
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