The K10

[merlin17]

I would love to know similar information regarding the FBT Verve 12ma, but I lack the knowledge and experience to do it myself. I'll have to google around a bit to see if anyone has looked into that speaker. I know one of the users here created an IR to flatten out the FBT Verve, but his unit is in for factory repair, so I'm not sure it'd be the best idea for me to use that IR. The other problem with looking at other people's tests on google is putting the same trust in accuracy in their tests as you would with Jay's tests.

Which basically means I should just practice my ability to play guitar instead of messing with it.

My Verve is back, on first listening it seems unchanged. Try my IR and see if you like it.
Listening to the K10 and the Verve side by side guitars/ vocals etc. (the midrangy stuff) gets kind of lost with the Verve when not eq'd.

 

[scotts]

(Jay Mitchell)...which perhaps Scott did not communicate as accurately as he could have...

____________

EXPERT: one with the special skill or knowledge representing mastery of a particular subject
____________

With regards to everything FRFR/loudspeaker/etc. I am an amateur enthusiast and end user. My ongoing learning experiences with Jay have given me just enough awareness and understanding to enthusiastically speculate way beyond my available data and completely misrepresent snippets of the various concepts that Jay has shared with me.

In my fields of expertise I go through this with my students all the time. Instead of learning slowly and incrementally and keeping things simple they drive me nuts with their uneducated speculations, non-experiential conclusions and leaps of mental nonsense.

In the microcosm of speaker land I am the bonehead student and it's fun. I get to watch myself wrestle with the student version of the rush to certainty, speculation beyond data and the desire to rationalize concepts that are way over my current learning curve to fit into my insisted upon belief structures. Based on the phone call I had with Jay this morning I believe I'm driving him a little bonkers in a teacher/student sort of way.
Student Scott says: You're welcome Jay! ...oh and no harm intended. Just a little overly enthusiastic and occasionally intolerant over here.

I am so disillusioned with all the various FRFR products I have tried. The more I learn, the more the speaker industry is starting to look like every other industry I have experience with:
~money trumps magic
~bean-counters regulate creatives
~a free exchange of information and ideas is unwelcome and threatening
~self-imposed and corporate mandated mediocrity is the norm

I speculate that in speaker land, as in most creative endeavors, for every expert like Jay who has been well educated in his component disciplines, developed deep understanding through decades of intense involvement, and achieved a transcendent and intuitive level of mastery, there are 1,000 journeymen that can't/won't and/or are too life-distracted to take things to the next level.

 

[GM Arts]

That's exactly what I was going to say

 

[qingcong]

I am so disillusioned with all the various FRFR products I have tried. The more I learn, the more the speaker industry is starting to look like every other industry I have experience with:
~money trumps magic
~bean-counters regulate creatives
~a free exchange of information and ideas is unwelcome and threatening
~self-imposed and corporate mandated mediocrity is the norm

In my experience as an engineer for a consumer audio company, you are right on in that assessment. It was always engineers vs. marketing.

 

[guitarman19853]

I reversed the polarity on my HF horn last night. Couldn't tell a significant difference with music. will have to try it with my AxeFx tonight. But the process was pretty easy if anyone is doubting their ability to do it.

Also, the hump in the low end, couldn't that be resolved with the Ext Sub Setting if it is truly a 100Hz high pass filter?

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I reversed the polarity on my HF horn last night. Couldn't tell a significant difference with music.

A number of individuals are not particularly sensitive to this subtle a change. Additionally, it could be masked to some extent by the other response issue I addressed in my suggestions.

Also, the hump in the low end, couldn't that be resolved with the Ext Sub Setting

No.

The feature that needs to be corrected is not a response "hump." It is a response shelf, with all frequencies below 700 Hz boosted by approximately 3dB compared to everything above that.

Rather than fixate on the descriptive terminology and try to second-guess what is being described, I suggest you simply try the fix:

1. Place a PEQ at the end of your internal signal chain.

2. Select Band 1.

3. Set Frequency to 700Hz.

4. Set Type to Shelving.

5. Leave Q set to default (.707).

6. Set Gain to -3dB.

7. Play. Listen.

You may find that, in more live stage/venue environments, you need to increase the amount of cut in Band 1 to something greater than 3dB. Use your ears for this.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Jays analysis shows that the phenomena I am experiencing is actually being caused in the 700Hz and up range.

I just caught this. It's the oppposite. The response problems in the K10 are in the "700Hz and down range." See my post above.

I made the phase change and implemented the corrective PEQ

I hope you used Band 1 and not Band 5. As I told you when we spoke about this, you want to cut everything below 700Hz. If you cut everything above that frequency, you would make the problem worse, not better.

 

[burningyen]

Many thanks for taking the time to do this, Jay. I look forward to trying the phase mod with my K10.

 

[merlin17]

Jay, if you can get your hands on a FBT Verve 12mA and test it that would be great.
I simply cannot understand why people here are liking it that much.
I think I'm selling mine anyway though...

 

[Pauly 6 String]

I hope you used Band 1 and not Band 5. As I told you when we spoke about this, you want to cut everything below 700Hz. If you cut everything above that frequency, you would make the problem worse, not better.

Hi Jay.

First off, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for doing this for Scott and for the benefit of the rest of us.

For a newbie to all this sonic magic, what would I put in bands 2-5?

Thanks again.

 

[felken]

Thanks Jay and Scotts. This is very helpful info.

 

[dk_ace]

Hi Jay.

First off, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for doing this for Scott and for the benefit of the rest of us.

For a newbie to all this sonic magic, what would I put in bands 2-5?

Thanks again.

Nothing. Unless you just want to play with additional EQ.

D

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Jay, if you can get your hands on a FBT Verve 12mA and test it that would be great.

This is something I would normally do - as a sideline to my primary business activities - for money. Scott is a personal friend whom I was helping. Since the speaker I tested for him is also being used by other participants here, the results are potentially beneficial, and sharing them costs nothing, it made sense to post them here. I have no intention testing any other loudspeakers for this purpose, however.

Here is a company I highly recommend for testing: Electro-Acoustic Testing Company.

Here are their rates: ETCINC.US - Pricing. This is an incredibly good deal.

 

[scotts]

I just caught this. It's the oppposite. The response problems in the K10 are in the "700Hz and down range." See my post above.

I hope you used Band 1 and not Band 5. As I told you when we spoke about this, you want to cut everything below 700Hz. If you cut everything above that frequency, you would make the problem worse, not better.

Oops. Typing late at night. Typing about concepts I don't have a firm intuitive grasp on. Jay told me to use Band 1 and carefully explained why. I had a brain-fart while composing my original post. Sorry for the confusion.

NOTE: I have edited the original post to avoid causing more confusion. Many folks don't read too far into any given thread.

 

[joegold]

1. Place a PEQ at the end of your internal signal chain.

2. Select Band 1.

3. Set Frequency to 700Hz.

4. Set Type to Shelving.

5. Leave Q set to default (.707).

6. Set Gain to -3dB.

7. Play. Listen.

You may find that, in more live stage/venue environments, you need to increase the amount of cut in Band 1 to something greater than 3dB. Use your ears for this.

Just for clarification Jay.
Are you saying that the shelf cut of everything below 700hz by -3dB will take care of the inaccurate mid-range response as well as the boomy bottom end on the K10?

Originally, I thought you said that this 700hz cut was to take care of a lower mid-range problem of the speaker and that a separate EQ should be used to tailor the response below 120hz.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Are you saying that the shelf cut of everything below 700hz by -3dB will take care of the inaccurate mid-range response as well as the boomy bottom end on the K10?

Yes.

Originally, I thought you said that this 700hz cut was to take care of a lower mid-range problem of the speaker and that a separate EQ should be used to tailor the response below 120hz.

No. Scott may have mistakenly implied that, but it was never part of my recommendation.

 

[joegold]

Thanks again Jay.

My own subjective experience with the K10 is that, yes, the bottom end is a little bit overemphasized, but I already knew that that can be dealt with easily via EQ.
The real trouble I had was with the top end.
It always sounded over-emphasized and very unnatural to me.
Attack transients are particularly harsh and stand out sonically much more than they do with a guitar speaker.
There seemed to be no way to deal with this via simple EQ-ing.

Is it really likely that swapping the phase on the tweeter will really do much to tame that problem?

 

[Jay Mitchell]

The real trouble I had was with the top end.
It always sounded over-emphasized and very unnatural to me.

High frequencies are actually underemphasized as delivered. At all frequencies above 700 Hz, the level is 3dB or more lower than the level at and below 700 Hz, at all positions. As you approach 30 degrees off axis, the level at 100-200 Hz is 6dB higher than the level at 8kHz. If there is anything "unnatural," it is that there is too little high-frequency energy, not too much.

Additional to the above, the driver QSC uses is a very high-performance piece. It is a substantial upgrade over the one they used in previous speakers. The shape of the high frequency horn is quite effective as well. Neither of these elements is creating harshness.

Attack transients are particularly harsh and stand out sonically much more than they do with a guitar speaker.

That is an essential difference between a "guitar speaker" and an FRFR device. It is the job of the cab sim to soften the attack, exactly as its physical counterpart would.

There seemed to be no way to deal with this via simple EQ-ing.

While that is most definitely possible, it would be doing nothing more or less than the cab sim should do.

Is it really likely that swapping the phase on the tweeter will really do much to tame that problem?

It is not a problem. If you didn't experience exactly the same thing with your NS-10s, it is only because they lack high frequencies.

There is no "unnatural" harshness in the K10. If it sounds harsh to you, it is because the signal you are sending it contains that harshness.

 

[barhrecords]

Thanks Jay and Scott for the testing and this thread.

Really good stuff.

- Richard

 

[barhrecords]

My take away from all this is...

In wanting an FRFR solution, I can now buy a QSC K10, make the adjustments mentioned in this thread, and have a system that has been proven *through legit testing* to be reasonably transparent.

And all this advice and testing is free.

Thank you... thank you... thank you!

- Richard