[Solved] Marshall amps sounds too thin

[steadystate]

Something that happens NOT by turning up your MV super super high.

So, above 9 o'clock is now "super super high"?

 

[VESmedic]

So, above 9 o'clock is now "super super high"?

Well if you want to be a smartass, it sure is on some amps. On a recto it’s already clipping at that volume. On a 5150 it’s getting close to full on clipping. When do you start getting override on a small deluxe combo? Obviously it depends on the pickups, but it ain’t much higher than 9-10 o’clock. And what happens to its tone? It gets farty, loose, and sounds like garbage unless you do some tweaks to the EQ, and then it sounds great. Obviously a totally different amp design though than anything we are talking about here. You do realize that’s what the headroom meter is for, right?


It’s really simple: when you clip a power amp, you’re essentially pushing it past its limits. When you do that, the power amp can no longer give the same frequency range as before at said volume, so you lose high end AND low end. The power amp does not have the power to amplify those frequencies at that volume any longer, thus the power amp starts caving in on itself so to speak. A much more mid focused tone. This is not up for debate in least, you can literally prove it. I’m not sure why you’re so hell bent on arguing something that clearly works for alot of people here, AND something cliff has always said.

A jcm800 can sound great at just about any volume. I would never run one north of 1 o’clock on the master though. This isn’t a debate about whether or not the amp sounds best (subjective) with the volume up super high, albeit I don’t think it does. The guy wanted more and a bigger lower end: you don’t get that by clipping a power amp, that is a compete fact both subjectively and scientifically.

 

[mr_fender]

It depends entirely on the amp in question and what kind of sound you are going for. For modern, channel switching amps that predominately use the preamp section for their drive and distortion, VESmedic's suggestions often hold true. The other side of the equation is how and when the amp transitions from clean to distorted. Some clip early and gradually, while others clip later and more abruptly.

To test how your chosen amp model is running, turn off Power Amp Modeling in the Amp block. For preamp dominant amps, like a Boogie Mark IV, you won't hear a huge difference in breakup. For poweramp dominant amps, like a Plexi, you'll hear a drastic difference in breakup.

There's no one size fits all answer here. Different amps respond in different ways. Some sound great with a cranked master. Others sound mushy and flubby.

 

[VESmedic]

It depends entirely on the amp in question and what kind of sound you are going for. For modern, channel switching amps that predominately use the preamp section for their drive and distortion, VESmedic's suggestions often hold true. The other side of the equation is how and when the amp transitions from clean to distorted. Some clip early and gradually, while others clip later and more abruptly.

To test how your chosen amp model is running, turn off Power Amp Modeling in the Amp block. For preamp dominant amps, like a Boogie Mark IV, you won't hear a huge difference in breakup. For poweramp dominant amps, like a Plexi, you'll hear a drastic difference in breakup.

There's no one size fits all answer here. Different amps respond in different ways. Some sound great with a cranked master. Others sound mushy and flubby.

Great post, totally agreed. The 800 to be fair is kind of its own thing in this world, and kind of an anomaly. It very obviously has a predominantly preamp driven overdrive ( hence the gain knob on them), but many people still DO find them pleasing with the volume way way up. And in some instances, this is perfectly fine, and sounds great. I would not say the same at all for a 5150, or Diezel or Engl etc: I can not think of a situation where those Amps sound great well into clipping the power amp. But the 800 definitely can, depending on what you are going for. But again, if more and tighter low end is what you are wanting, turning up the master volume past clipping is the last thing you wanna do.

I also think it’s worth nothing that, your favorite guitar tones generally have much much less midrange across the spectrum than you think. Cranking up an amp often makes it much more mid forward, which people do because they think they are “supposed” to and then wonder why it doesn’t sound great, or wonder why it’s not even close to their favorite records tones. Plexis are obviously power amp based and sounds great cranked, with a boost up front or not, whatever you wanna do with them, they always sound great. Much more versatile than they get credit for.

 

[steadystate]

Well if you want to be a smartass, it sure is on some amps. On a recto it’s already clipping at that volume. On a 5150 it’s getting close to full on clipping. When do you start getting override on a small deluxe combo? Obviously it depends on the pickups, but it ain’t much higher than 9-10 o’clock. And what happens to its tone? It gets farty, loose, and sounds like garbage unless you do some tweaks to the EQ, and then it sounds great. Obviously a totally different amp design though than anything we are talking about here. You do realize that’s what the headroom meter is for, right?


It’s really simple: when you clip a power amp, you’re essentially pushing it past its limits. When you do that, the power amp can no longer give the same frequency range as before at said volume, so you lose high end AND low end. The power amp does not have the power to amplify those frequencies at that volume any longer, thus the power amp starts caving in on itself so to speak. A much more mid focused tone. This is not up for debate in least, you can literally prove, I’m not sure why you’re so hell bent on arguing something that clearly is works for alot of people here, AND something cliff has always said.

A jcm800 can sound great at just about any volume. I would never run one north of 1 o’clock on the master though. This isn’t a debate about whether or not the amp sounds best (subjective) with the volume up super high, albeit I don’t think it does. The guy wanted more and a bigger lower end: you don’t get that by clipping a power amp, that is a compete fact both subjectively and scientifically.

Smartass? You are now talking about Rectos and 5150s? Your original advice for Marshalls specifically was "Keep the master no higher than 9 o’clock or so. I don’t care if it’s the JVM models, 800, whatever,‘doesn’t matter." Blanket, global statement for all Marshalls. Now, your adding refinements such as "This isn’t a debate about whether or not the amp sounds best (subjective) with the volume up super high", and citing high-gain amps that get all of their distortion from the preamp. Sorry, but both matter. Big time. I'm saying use your ears. Always.

Amps like Rectos, 5150s, and Marshalls with very high-gain preamps OBVIOUSLY sound best with low master volume settings. Other amps also have a range that is OBVIOUSLY best for them. You took my statement to mean "use your eyes instead of your ears"? Your "doesn't matter" attitute is more in line with using your eyes instead of your ears.

And sure, you can get a more linear low end on a Plexi by running the master at or below 9. But this introduces a whole new set of deficiencies far greater than any problems that it solves.

All misunderstandings (on both sides) aside, my approach is to try ALL master volume settings, in conjunction with pre and post eq to develop the best tone with the least compromise (as I said in my first post). Pre bass cut with a corresponding post boost can solve more issues than turning the MV down on an amp that relies heavily on power stage clipping and compression.

 

[VESmedic]

Smartass? You are now talking about Rectos and 5150s? Your original advice for Marshalls specifically was "Keep the master no higher than 9 o’clock or so. I don’t care if it’s the JVM models, 800, whatever,‘doesn’t matter." Blanket, global statement for all Marshalls. Now, your adding refinements such as "This isn’t a debate about whether or not the amp sounds best (subjective) with the volume up super high", and citing high-gain amps that get all of their distortion from the preamp. Sorry, but both matter. Big time. I'm saying use your ears. Always.

Amps like Rectos and 5150s OBVIOUSLY sound best with low master volume settings. Other amps also have a range that is OBVIOUSLY best for them. You took my statement to mean "use your eyes instead of your ears"? Your "doesn't matter" attitute is more in line with using your eyes instead of your ears.

And sure, you can get a more linear low end on a Plexi by running the master at or below 9. But this introduces a whole new set of deficiencies far greater than any problems that it solves.

All misunderstandings (on both sides) aside, my approach is to try ALL master volume settings, in conjunction with pre and post eq to develop the best tone with the least compromise (as I said in my first post). Pre bass cut with a corresponding post boost can solve more issues than turning the MV down on an amp that relies heavily on power stage clipping and compression.

I think it’s pretty safe to say it’s just as obvious that we aren’t talking about amps like a plexi, just as it is as obvious we aren’t talking about rectos Diezel, etc. This is not a hard concept( well, I thought anyways) to understand why i brought ALL of those amps up.

And yea, I most definitely stand by my blanket statement: if you push a power amp, ANY power amp into clipping, you’re gonna get less bass that is not as tight, is flubbier, and much slower. You’re also going to get much less high end, and a pronounced midrange. Again, this is not at all up for debate.

Whether it’s clipping at 6 or at 2 on the volume knob, doesn’t matter , the outcome is the same. It’s also more than obvious that many, many Amps that get their overdrive from the preamp ( like the 800) often all start getting eerily close to clipping, or are already full on clipping at around 9-10 o’clock on its master volume knob. Which is why I said turn the volume down to 9 o’clock and start there, because I know the 800 isn’t clipping at that point and the OP will for sure get closer to what he’s looking for, no question about it.

I have no idea what you’re saying about subjectivity and my statements being “refined”. I didn’t refine a damn thing. I made it perfectly clear what to try if the OP wanted the sounds he wants. Stating that it sounds “better” is a completely subjective statement. Some people like that fatter creamier slower response of a master volume pushed high, some don’t…it’s subjective. But what isn’t subjective, is what will definitely help the OP get what he was going after, which was a bigger and more low end as he stated.

 

[unix-guy]

I've never played a real marshall (jcm 800 or plexi)

I think it’s pretty safe to say it’s just as obvious that we aren’t talking about amps like a plexi

To be clear, the OP didn't say specifically which Marshall amps he tried... But first post does say "plexi".

 

[steadystate]

I think it’s pretty safe to say it’s just as obvious that we aren’t talking about amps like a plexi,

This assumption of yours, in conjunction with your statement that the model "doesn't matter" is precisely why the advice is bad as stated. It's not because it doesn't apply in specific situations or that it can't be helpful. It's because you made a definitive global statement. Why not just say "Yeah, I should have been more specific", rather than assuming that the reader should know what you really meant as opposed to what you wrote?

Whether it’s clipping at 6 or at 2 on the volume knob, doesn’t matter ,

It does, when you insist on keeping it at or below 9 o'clock in any and all circumstances. Had you said something like "Try reducing your master volume and see if it helps", it would have been better received.

I have no idea what you’re saying about subjectivity

You used the word, not me. I was quoting you.

At this point, I think anyone can figure out that trying different MV settings is a reasonable first step. Keeping the MV low on specific types of amps has been topic for discussion on this board for years. The necessity for dialing it higher (even up to full) on certain amps has been equally stressed as well.

The prevailing wisdom has always been to experiment and listen. For me, the best MV setting depends on the type of amp, how hard I'm pushing the preamp, and the type of tone I'm going for. And it can be anywhere from 2 to 10. Using pre/post eq, my "classic rock" style tones are FAR better with the MV at 5 to 10 than with it running low. No flub, no fart. Just chimey thick lows with definition and warmth.

 

[Hulkko]

 

[Forever Again]

I think there’s enough valuable info in this thread for the OP to go forth and conquer. Feel free to duke it out over DM instead, if needed. TIA

 

[unix-guy]

I think there’s enough valuable info in this thread for the OP to go forth and conquer. Feel free to duke it out over DM instead, if needed. TIA

The OP already changed the thread title to "solved" days ago and went a totally different route

 

[VESmedic]

This assumption of yours, in conjunction with your statement that the model "doesn't matter" is precisely why the advice is bad as stated. It's not because it doesn't apply in specific situations or that it can't be helpful. It's because you made a definitive global statement. Why not just say "Yeah, I should have been more specific", rather than assuming that the reader should know what you really meant as opposed to what you wrote?

It does, when you insist on keeping it at or below 9 o'clock in any and all circumstances. Had you said something like "Try reducing your master volume and see if it helps", it would have been better received.

You used the word, not me. I was quoting you.

At this point, I think anyone can figure out that trying different MV settings is a reasonable first step. Keeping the MV low on specific types of amps has been topic for discussion on this board for years. The necessity for dialing it higher (even up to full) on certain amps has been equally stressed as well.

The prevailing wisdom has always been to experiment and listen. For me, the best MV setting depends on the type of amp, how hard I'm pushing the preamp, and the type of tone I'm going for. And it can be anywhere from 2 to 10. Using pre/post eq, my "classic rock" style tones are FAR better with the MV at 5 to 10 than with it running low. No flub, no fart. Just chimey thick lows with definition and warmth.

Better received? YOU are the only one not on the same page here man, literally everyone else enjoyed this thread and found something valuable in it, until you decide to come in with your “it’s bad advice” comment when the product in question wasn’t even the axe fx in the first place…talk about a global statement….


And for the 11th time, I explained in clearly too much detail for your brain to understand, WHY I said turn it down to 9 oclock or so…and gee look at that, apparently this made a positive difference with multiple people here, which is the point of this board. I said SPECIFICALLY 9 oclock because I know for a fact that the stock 2203 isn’t clipping at that level. Maybe alittle higher too, who knows. But I know for a fact 9 oclock, it’s not clipping. That completely takes that variable out without question instead of just “turn down the master a bit”…what if he turned it down 2 clicks and doesn’t understand that the amp is still clipping, now he thinks that didn’t fix his problem, now he moves on to something else to try and fix the issue. When he could have just turned it down to 9 oclock or so, below clipping ( regardless if he understands this concept or not) and solved his issue. There’s a reason why I said start there, and it’s for a very logical reason. I hope this finally clears this up for you, I wouldn’t want you be the only one getting left behind here.


And no dude, once again, the model doesn’t matter.a power amp always behaves like a power amp. There are certain universal ideologies we all say ( mixing prramp and power amp gain = bad etc) and whether or not certain things sound good to you, is SUBJECTIVE…yes, subjective…and once again, what’s NOT subjective, is what a power amp does when it clips, which I’ve stated multiple times. I truly don’t understand why this concept and this thread is so hard for you, and only you.

 

[VESmedic]

To be clear, the OP didn't say specifically which Marshall amps he tried... But first post does say "plexi".

Fair enough. I think I was confusing OP along with a few other people who stated they were having similar issues and mentioned other amps etc.

 

[James Freeman]

In my experience the Marshalls in the AxeFx are very accurate when directly compared to my Marshall amps.
In my opinion there is no need to adjust advanced parameters, learn to dial in a stock Marshall model because you will get just about the same sound/feel/experience from the real amp into a load box.

 

[steadystate]

In my experience the Marshalls in the AxeFx are very accurate when directly compared to my Marshall amps.
In my opinion there is no need to adjust advanced parameters, learn to dial in a stock Marshall model because you will get just about the same sound/feel/experience from the real amp into a load box.

The Marshalls can and do sound great. I just find they need a bit more work to optimize than some other makes, mainly because I think the preamps on many models (real or model) can sound awful on their own, and power amp clipping and compression come with some of the disadvantages discussed in this thread. It takes some work for me to get around that. Being able to set the amp eq between the preamp and power amp is a great feature.

 

[VESmedic]

In my experience the Marshalls in the AxeFx are very accurate when directly compared to my Marshall amps.
In my opinion there is no need to adjust advanced parameters, learn to dial in a stock Marshall model because you will get just about the same sound/feel/experience from the real amp into a load box.

Well, a real amp into a load box is not the same as playing a real amp into a cab that’s mic’d up, but I digress…

But I agree with you, you definitely DONT need to deep dive into parameters to get a great sound out of the Marshall models. Albeit I would argue a simple tweak of the grid bias is not really a deep dive. It’s a real practical move that people do on their real amps. Much like people dropping the variac on their plexi models in the axe: another real world scenario. I think the term “deep dive” for sure meant something completely different and truly was deep diving in the days of the axe 1 and 2. But again I agree, they sound great plugging straight in with a cab IR.

 

[Sorenspete]

Going into the output EQ in the amp block and push the bass up. I feel like everyone forgets about that tab. It makes getting good tones so easy. Pull out what you dont want and put in what you want.

I do this with literally every amp I try on the Fractal. With my Fryette 2/90/2 I turn the power amp depth all the way down, then boost 80hz via the Mark style output EQ in the amp block. Not always though, you can mix and match a bit and use both power amp low end and output EQ low end, but I think the reason I do that is because of the sheer amount of low end my oversized Recto cab has because you tend to lose tightness after a certain amount of power amp depth. Also more output from the Fractal and/or power amp will mean you may need less 80hz boosted in the output EQ. Just my experience.

 

[VegaBaby]

Some great advice one thing not mentioned as it’s kind of obvious, make sure your input signal isn’t too low set it to tickling the reds

wrong. unless it's on 0 there's pretty much next to mo difference in sound (like for example turning your guitar's volume down) but in noisefloor. there has been plenty of discussions about this and some good info in a video Cooper Carter did some time ago....

 

[Bones86]

What does this community and the FAS Axe Fx units have in common?

Simply the best in the world and that is my honest truth.

I only once had a real JCM 2000 and I liked it, but Marshall was never my thing My Axe Fx lll's JVM410H is OUTSTANDING though. I can never dial that thing in wrong somehow. Playing Maiden songs through the Fx's JVM410H and it is like I am IN the recording myself.

Hope OP found his tone and what amazing help you guys gave. This community deserves a reward someday too!

 

[Dave Merrill]

Come to think of it, Eric Johnson runs his lead tone with settings very similar to AC/DC's, with BMTP all at or below 3. Of course, he is also jumping the channels, which makes a darker tone than AC/DC.
9:00 mark on this video:

Which Fractal Marshall is the closest to what he's using? 1959SLP JUMPED maybe?