"Real amps just have something modelers can't replicate"

Real amps and modelers have something in common, they both need signal to be sent to a device that delivers the sound out to our ears.
That is where the complaint comes from. If you want to compare them in the context of playing back the sound in the studio at the desk, or in ears, etc modelers are the winner.

If you want to compare them in the bedroom or on stage 'old school style' using real guitar speakers then modelers can do that too but you handicap a big part of what makes the modeler superior because you just can't buy and transport and use all those speaker/cab choices Fractal puts in the modeler in a practical way to prove it.

So the original, sarcastic, point is actually a valid point for lots of people if they don't consider the inherent nature of what they are really listening to.
Both, fan boys of modeling and fan boys of real amps, are wrong when either group ignores that reality/problem to claim their preference is absolutely superior.

So far Kemper Kone is the one potential exemption to my assessment. I would love to see Fractal explore that kind of solution.
 
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I also love that pretty much any model in Axefx can sound great to my ear with minimal tweaking regardless of accuracy, but, I also love that when I try to play my heros' tunes with a tone that sounds right wrt the amp type used in the recording I have in mind, it does often sound right with minimal effort on Axfx (the playing is another matter tho 🤣). I'd guess the accuracy aspect would also be quite important for other player types also (cover bands, studios / recording artists that need to be able to cop specific reference tones, enthusiasts / hackers / even beginners wanting the tune they are learning to sound more authentic). Could it sound more right?: I'd predict yes: (see new FW thread following CC's next epiphany) - but compared to other devices I've owned that required all manner of tweak gyration to get in the ballpark, Axfx rules.
 
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Severed said:
I like em all too .... but... but.... but....

My 2018 EVH 5150iii 6L6 50 watt is way way "meaty-er" (yes I made that word up) than the models in the FM3 or the Axe-Fx II, also its tone changes based on tube wear and how long its been on (powered on in use, not in stand by).... its a completely different beast after its been cooking for 30 mins it's like the sound gains weight lol.

I wish Cliff could model that phenomenon.
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I hope this thread is a safe space to admit this, but I'm a 5150iii guy and the AxeFX version is not identical to my real one. The real one is "chonkier", I don't know how else to put it. I need to learn more fancy amp comparison terms. The puff on it gurths differently. When it's chibblin it sure does scraggle.

Funny enough, the 5153 that reminds me of my real one the most is actually in STL Tones Amp Hub, despite being all "amp simmy".
 
GitarKnut said:
He will :) :) :cool: :cool: ;) ;)....... or at least I'm sure he will look into it..... if he hasen't done that already.....:):). I assume (or guess - right or wrong) that the reason component values change with temperature and stabilize after a while. Like starting you car engine from cold and after some driving the temperatures (lube oil and toleranses between components like e.g. pistons and cylinder walls) stabilise and the engine performs at its optimum.
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Or is the "phenomenon" caused by a change in "frequency responce" in our hearing, i.e. that the sensitivity for high frequencies is reduced after approx. 30 minutes and we perceive this as a lift in low- and mid-range frequencies? It is always recommended to have "fresh ears" when dialling in a Preset.......
 
RifferMcDuck said:
I hope this thread is a safe space to admit this, but I'm a 5150iii guy and the AxeFX version is not identical to my real one. The real one is "chonkier", I don't know how else to put it. I need to learn more fancy amp comparison terms. The puff on it gurths differently. When it's chibblin it sure does scraggle.

Funny enough, the 5153 that reminds me of my real one the most is actually in STL Tones Amp Hub, despite being all "amp simmy".
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I would like to see Fractal implement in the 5153 Red Channel models how the Blue channel’s gain control affects the Red Channel tone. Turning up the Blue channel’s gain gives the Red channel’s gain a whole different character.
 
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biggness said:
I would like to see Fractal implement in the 5153 Red Channel models how the Blue channel’s gain control affects the Red Channel tone. Turning up the Blue channel’s gain gives the Red channel’s gain a whole different character.
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Does that work on the 50w EL34 version? I can check on mine, but I’m recovering from Covid and probably should get some rest. Pretty sure I have my blue channel gain up and red channel gain about 9 o’clock.
 
Genghis said:
Does that work on the 50w EL34 version? I can check on mine, but I’m recovering from Covid and probably should get some rest. Pretty sure I have my blue channel gain up and red channel gain about 9 o’clock.
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I’m not sure about the 50w version, as I only have experience with the 100w. In this video, someone in the comments mentioned it works on the 50w too though.



Little things like this tell me that although the Fractal tech is insanely close and the best digital option available by a mile, it’s still not 1:1 when it comes to fully replicating the amp it’s modeling.
 
jephjacques said:
Just for shits and giggles, hooked up my Revv Generator 100p to A/B it with the AxeFX version. Same IR, same SIC, same settings all around. And they sound identical. The controls interact the same way. I know this is Kind Of The Whole Point Of The AxeFX but it still feels magical to see it happen right in front of me.
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My 30 years old Soldano still sounds amazing and can be sold for a twice the price I bought it. Now let’s talk about a 30 years old Axe Fx 😜
 
Jor777 said:
The price
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Yep. Add up the cost of all of the amps and effects in a Fractal, and it’s a steal. There’s a Dumble and a Klon in there, so we’re already into six figures with just that one amp, and you can get three Axe-FXs for what a single Klon is currently going for.
 
RifferMcDuck said:
I hope this thread is a safe space to admit this, but I'm a 5150iii guy and the AxeFX version is not identical to my real one. The real one is "chonkier", I don't know how else to put it. I need to learn more fancy amp comparison terms. The puff on it gurths differently. When it's chibblin it sure does scraggle.

Funny enough, the 5153 that reminds me of my real one the most is actually in STL Tones Amp Hub, despite being all "amp simmy".
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I like big chunky high gain sounds, and the low end response is how I can usually tell the real tube stuff from modelers. There is just more depth and thonk on the real things.
 
Shask said:
I like big chunky high gain sounds, and the low end response is how I can usually tell the real tube stuff from modelers. There is just more depth and thonk on the real things.
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I hear that as well as better detail in the highs. I’m pretty meticulous about blending multiple mics on my two cabs and have a recipe that gives me what I like.
 
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Paulzx said:
Is it not just another example of the vinyl vs cd or mp3 argument? You've effectively got a superior product now, but it's not tactile and doesn't look as good as the original thing. However the modern equivalent product is so much more convenient.

I propose the following solution - a dummy Recto head (or 5150 etc.. JCM 800) that people can put in their playing spaces with all the lights and switches and hum..

But inside is an Axe FX III haha!
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Sound also passes through the eyes, as does taste!
 
NeoSound said:
????? My modeler does something (many things) that a real tube amp can't replicate!!! Great tones are easy but if I'm smart enough or rather have the patience, there's almost no tone I can't nail and unlimited new original great tones can be found.

Love tube amps and still own a few that haven't been powered up in years but for the most part they are a one trick pony... the Axe Fx is a million-trick herd!!! Definitely the best pallet of sound to paint with that I have had the pleasure to own!
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My position exactly. I still own the best tube amps I've collected since I started playing in 1965. They're great when used to their strengths.

But with an FM-3, I can get really close to a cranked Twin Reverb or Soldano tone playing at speaking volumes (yeah, I know, Fletcher-Munson, etc.) I can play an outdoor festival or a coffeeshop with the same equipment, or at worst, a larger or smaller frfr.

I can also add fx before or after the amp/speakers, or both. I don't deal with thinness at low volumes, or woofiness at higher volumes. I have far more control, versatility, and confidence in the technology, than I ever have/had with tube amps; the fragility and obsolescence of having 4-11 glass bottles bouncing across the countryside in a van or semi is now irrelevant. And, the FM-3 is more consistent gig to gig, weighs less/costs less to travel with, and the fx are easily on par with the best out there, but with fewer a/d and d/a conversions (generally) than with a board of the best standalone fx. And then, 325 different amp models...

As a dinosaur from the old world order, IMO the new approach (modeling, and specifically, Fractal's modeling) is far superior to tubes. Perhaps if you are in a major touring band, with techs, roadies, a rolling repair shop, and forklifts for the scaffolding, speaker cabs, etc., the putative "benefits" of tubes become more clear, but for those of us at a less rarified level, I find my tones, touch, control, and my life in general far easier to negotiate without "toobz".

Those of us who've lived with their myriad shortcomings and quirks for 60 years generally don't idolize primitive tech as much as those who imbue it with mystique, romance, and history do. A gullwing Benz is in no way superior to a Pagani Zonda, but the backstory is more compelling. Like being married to someone for 60 years, you understand their strengths and shortcomings, but the honeymoon is definitely over. I'll take my FM-3 over any tube amp I've owned or used, ever. And that includes some serious unobtanium tube amps.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm pulling better and more consistent tones night after night right now than I ever had in decades past. The size of the venue is irrelevant to the sound I'm getting. And some of the sounds would be very difficult to impossible to achieve with conventional gear.

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but if I were offered any single tube amp ever vs. a Fractal head, I'd take the Fractal with no hesitation (disregarding resale value). Dumbles, Trainwrecks, Kelleys, no matter. Caveat--you NEED serious audio engineering/mixing experience and knowledge to craft great fx and combinations of fx to use modelers well, or you need to buy patches. It still comes down to the musician, not the instrument. But, if you can build them, the sky's the limit.
 
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Shask said:
I like big chunky high gain sounds, and the low end response is how I can usually tell the real tube stuff from modelers. There is just more depth and thonk on the real things.
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In my experience the real amps (at least the ones I have experience with) have more body still. They're bigger and chunkier. Plus they have a little less high end presence; I've found all modelers approach high end differently and none can get it perfect.
 
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