Issues with USB port: Did FAS just forget the USB isolator?

TheRedDevil

TheRedDevil

Power User
Refer to:
"I was told that static or over voltage from the host can damage the usb chip so was advised to get a usb isolater to protect the fm3"
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fm3-repair.194604/post-2654207
Damaged ESD protection diode:
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fm3-usb-problem-fix.216800/#post-2728268

and

"The USB Isolator ... enables the galvanically isolated connection of USB peripherals to a USB host. USB ports in desktop computers generally do not have any galvanic isolation of the USB interface from the rest of the computer hardware. While this feature is not a problem for all USB devices without their own ground reference, USB devices with a ground reference should be connected to the computer in a galvanically isolated manner. This measure prevents ground loops and their undesirable compensating currents, which can disrupt data transmission and, in extreme cases, destroy the interfaces. Galvanic isolation is easily achieved by inserting the ... USB Isolator into the existing USB device connection cable. No additional software or drivers are required. ..."
https://www.ien-dach.de/artikel/usb-isolator/

Is a forgotten USB isolator e.g. based on ADUM3165 chip the reason for our damaged USB port problems?
Did FAS forget this isolator or do we really need to isolate every usb device with own power source (e.g. USB-C monitors, DAWs, etc)?

I ordered this one: https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005008091400900.html for 12€. I hope it protects my FAS devices.
 
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Anton Karelin said:
Thread '[already in there] USB data line protection' https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/already-in-there-usb-data-line-protection.200943/
Click to expand...
But is it the same like ADUM3165 chip (ESD protection vs. galvanic isolation) and why do you use a USB isolator additionally?
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fm3-repair.194604/post-2654524

"USB Isolator (galvanic isolation) based on the Analog Devices ADuM3160 to protect computers from surges, ESD spikes and to avoid ground loops."
https://shop.watterott.com/USB-Isolator-galvanische-Trennung

Looks like, ESD protection doesn't help for surges and ground loops, or? What about the ground loop switch on FAS devices?
 
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TheRedDevil said:
But is it the same like ADUM3165 chip (ESD protection vs. galvanic isolation) and why do you use a USB isolator additionally?
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fm3-repair.194604/post-2654524

"USB Isolator (galvanic isolation) based on the Analog Devices ADuM3160 to protect computers from surges, ESD spikes and to avoid ground loops."
https://shop.watterott.com/USB-Isolator-galvanische-Trennung

Looks like, ESD protection doesn't help for surges and ground loops, or? What about the ground loop switch on FAS devices?
Click to expand...
More details about it (in German):
https://www.igorslab.de/trennen-und...sch-trennen-und-signale-filtern-teil-2-von-2/
https://www.igorslab.de/trennen-und...h-trennen-und-signale-filtern-teil-2-von-2/4/
 
This forum is full of this, and people keep claiming it's the electrical system. I live in a new building, and everything here has been wired and tested according to standards, and yet I still keep losing the USB connection. I've used different cables, operating systems, coiled the USB cable, switched off energy saving, and so far everything seems to have worked fine. But I still think something's wrong. The previous German article suggests that every audio interface really needs a USB isolator. So I take criticism like this seriously. Lots of people will watch the video (Amp Modeler Comparison). If it's only a €12 part that needs to be used, then we should know about it. It would be a shame if FAS's business and our innovations suffered because of it. I also don't want a damaged USB port.
 
I have no idea if this is something to be concerned about or not. I have had loads of devices connected over usb for years and years. I’ve only had one of them die, and need repair, and that was a Fractal FM3 that was repaired under warranty. I just put that down to bad luck. I’m dubious that a usb dongle is going to reduce the risk of it happening again unless someone who knows what they are talking about could prove its effectiveness with the Fractal devices. Otherwise I’m just going to assume Cliff has it covered in his design. I expect the number of failures is a tiny proportion of those that are sold.
 
As I understand it, the USB Isolator works with a kind of light barrier for data transmission that prevents current from flowing between devices. That sounds like protection, I'd say.
 
TheRedDevil said:
As I understand it, the USB Isolator works with a kind of light barrier for data transmission that prevents current from flowing between devices. That sounds like protection, I'd say.
Click to expand...
At this point, if you're still having disconnects that you attribute to this issue, why not blaze the trail and test your hypothesis? Pick one up, implement, and does the problem persist? If it indeed does resolve the issue, I'd be interested in the results and I'm sure it could help others who've presented this issue.

I don't have the issue, but if you do have a repeatable anomaly, even randomly, and this device prevents it over time, sounds like reasonable protection and perhaps a fix for a particular environment one could invest in, and it would certainly go a long way to making a case for some possible future hardware implementation as well.
 
hfam said:
why not blaze the trail and test your hypothesis?
Click to expand...
The way I understood it is that he already did:
TheRedDevil said:
I ordered this one: https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005008091400900.html for 12€. I hope it protects my FAS devices.
Click to expand...

TheRedDevil said:
I got it and it seems to work with usb sticks and axe edit. I ordered a second piece for my FM3. I hope it protects the USB port. Cheaper than a repair.
Click to expand...
Or did you mean something else?
 
Peavey Herman said:
The way I understood it is that he already did:



Or did you mean something else?
Click to expand...
Thx I missed that somehow! :cool:

I'm looking forward to see if it indeed does fix the issue for him. I see a few other similar isolated incidents and it seems at least a few have seemingly run the gambit trying different ideas to solve it to no avail. I think in those cases at least something like this would be a welcome solution! Gonna hang around and see how this turns out.
 
I had disconnects with my usb connection that required a reboot. I just swapped from the cable I was using to the one G66 shipped with my Axe3 and the problem went away.
 
For me to deactivate the USB energy saving setting seems to work. But I don't find time to test it with Reaper/DAW to be 100% sure. It was not often.
I can't believe, that all these USB cables are damaged. I never had a damaged one since USB is availble. I still think there is an issue with the FAS devices because of the number of damaged USB ports. Possibly just because such isolator is missing and the computer USB interfaces is not working as it should. I just want to prevent to get a real issue in future.
 
"USB has a flaw in its design in that it causes a ground loop because both ends are grounded. You can use a USB Isolator to break the ground loop. (...) "Disconnecting the ground is dangerous. While it can solve noise due to a ground loop it increases the risk of an overvoltage on the Vbus and data pins which can damage the USB controllers (this is why the spec calls for ground at both ends). The correct way to solve a USB ground loop is to make sure the peripheral and PC are plugged into the same power strip. Keep all power cables bundled close together as possible."
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=USB#USB_ground_loop

I always use the same power strip. Well, I would say that means, USB isolator it a must to be really safe.
 
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