Struggling with boomy bass and harsh mids

[Paulzx]

I've watched too many real amp demos lately and been impressed with how rounded the tones are. What I mean by that
is they seem to produce a natural high gain tone without boomy muddy lows and harsh trebly highs, it sounds good everywhere on the neck.

I want my high gain tones to sound like that but most times I end up with quite boomy low end and harsh treble in the mids, and when I adjust for this, it just seems to suck what life there was in the tone, out to the point of ending up with a flat lifeless, sometimes wiry tone. I know, we've discussed the high and low cuts in the cab block to death on here, I've done all that. I've tried a 10 band EQ, which I find if you start reducing low end frequencies, it make the tone very light sounding, lacking thickness. I've tried the parametric EQ, but it all results in the same thing, in that when I start making alterations it does reduce highs and lows but the tone is dull.

I've got my FM 3 on a USB cable in to my laptop, running FM3 edit. FM3 is running 1/4" cables to two HS7 FRFR monitors, so nothing unusual.
I know we've discussed tones fitting in the mix on here a lot, and I understand all of that, isolated guitar tracks not sounding as huge as you perceive them on a record and so forth - but they still sound lively with dynamics whereas mine sound more anaemic.

Have I just hit the limit of digital modelers or is there anything else I can try?

 

[mtb]

I struggle with the same thing. Either too boomy or too harsh.

 

[roodboy]

Maybe mess with irs, try dynacabs and or 3rd party irs
also dont forget slope value on hi/lo cuts in cab block
York $1 mesa cab is a no brainer
But maybe the frfr thing isnt for you and run into a power amp conventional cab is your thing

 

[PSea]

are you using the low cut on the cab block? input eq in the amp block? cut switch on the amp block? eq in amp block?

all of those can shape bass significantly.

last, make sure youre shaping tone at the same volume you intend to use it. (fletcher munson)

 

[strabes]

Post an example of the type of tone you're going for.

 

[stephanfm3]

this helps me against boomy / muddy lows. you kann add later gain to taste with peq or similar.

 

[ViggoP]

Could it be the room acoustics affecting how you perceive the sound?

 

[Rex]

One secret to getting rid of muddy or boomy bass is pre-EQ. Reduce the low-frequency stuff that’s going into the amp. The Cut parameter in the Amp block will instantly improve that situation. You can fine-tune that using Input EQ.

The room you’re playing in can also be a contributing factor, as @ViggoP mentioned. And don’t overlook the role of the pickup, particularly when it comes to high-end harshness or smoothness.

 

[Will Chen]

Few things.

1. "I've watched too many real amp demos lately and been impressed with how rounded the tones are." I'm sure you know this but any sponsored/highly produced vids you are getting an ideal tone tailored to generate sales/engagement.

2. Boomy lows can be fixed in 2 ways. If you want tighter palm muting, is the Input EQ to cut lows. If you are simply looking to dial back frequencies, look for Leon Todd's multiband compressor technique which is great at smoothing out lows without making things sound thin.

3. Harshness beyond the treble tone control for me typically happens in 2 places. You can try reducing the presence control or mess around with a parametric EQ and a notch to find the specific frequency, typically somewhere between 3-5k, that's bothering on you and adjust.

 

[Paulzx]

Maybe mess with irs, try dynacabs and or 3rd party irs
also dont forget slope value on hi/lo cuts in cab block
York $1 mesa cab is a no brainer
But maybe the frfr thing isnt for you and run into a power amp conventional cab is your thing

Have gone down the rabbit hole of IR's and dynacabs. That does improve the overall sound, but doesn't really change this particular character of the tone that I'm having a problem with.

You might be right on the conventional cab. Not the direction I wanted to go in, but I probably need to try that

 

[Paulzx]

are you using the low cut on the cab block? input eq in the amp block? cut switch on the amp block? eq in amp block?

all of those can shape bass significantly.

last, make sure youre shaping tone at the same volume you intend to use it. (fletcher munson)

Yep, kind of done all that. It's that type of issue where you think you've got a good tone but eventually realise what you really got was a tone with way too much low and high end, so it's a full sound, but really it's too fizzy and too boomy. When you realise that, you know you need to make cuts to eliminate that, but what you're left with is a not very pleasing tone, thin, boxy and harsh in the mids.

What I really want is for my FM3 to sound more like the character of the tone I'm hearing on these latest real amp demos, particularly that silver Jubilee tone. That was a rich sounding crackly distortion, it had bass but it wasn't boomy, it sounded good. I can't seem to nail that balance.
It might be the room, it might be the speakers. I don't think it's the IR's, I've tried enough of those over the last 12 months - or it's just how modelers produce their tone? I'm not sure.

 

[Paulzx]

Post an example of the type of tone you're going for.

Just listen to the tone coming off this thing, it's not overly trebly but it still barks, he's got low end but it's not boomy. I can't get very close to this, I've tried!

 

[Goonie]

One secret to getting rid of muddy or boomy bass is pre-EQ. Reduce the low-frequency stuff that’s going into the amp. The Cut parameter in the Amp block will instantly improve that situation. You can fine-tune that using Input EQ.

The room you’re playing in can also be a contributing factor, as @ViggoP mentioned. And don’t overlook the role of the pickup, particularly when it comes to high-end harshness or smoothness.

I have the cut switch assigned to a CS and set to "last" on all my scenes/presets specifically for this situation.
I've mentioned somewhere in the past that using the cut switch is the same as setting the low cut on the input EQ to 120hz.

 

[Paulzx]

this helps me against boomy / muddy lows. you kann add later gain to taste with peq or similar.

View attachment 151183

I'll try.. but it's more the case of I don't like how it sounds after I've done the cuts. Would it sound any different cutting it here against doing it in the cab block?

 

[Paulzx]

Could it be the room acoustics affecting how you perceive the sound?

It might be, because it is a small room. That may be impacting the low end and forcing me to cut too much and making it sound weak. I don't know if the room acoustics is what's making the harsh treble and mids though

 

[Paulzx]

One secret to getting rid of muddy or boomy bass is pre-EQ. Reduce the low-frequency stuff that’s going into the amp. The Cut parameter in the Amp block will instantly improve that situation. You can fine-tune that using Input EQ.

The room you’re playing in can also be a contributing factor, as @ViggoP mentioned. And don’t overlook the role of the pickup, particularly when it comes to high-end harshness or smoothness.

Okay I'm going to investigate this!

 

[Goonie]

It might be, because it is a small room. That may be impacting the low end and forcing me to cut too much and making it sound weak. I don't know if the room acoustics is what's making the harsh treble and mids though

For the harsh treble, you may want to experiment with a high shelf around 2k-3k at about -3dB as opposed to a basic high cut that has a more drastic drop off. That'll bring everything down beyond the cutoff point a little smoother.
If i remember correctly, the global EQ are high and low shelves, but the PEQ block let's you choose the type of filtering.

 

[Paulzx]

Few things.

1. "I've watched too many real amp demos lately and been impressed with how rounded the tones are." I'm sure you know this but any sponsored/highly produced vids you are getting an ideal tone tailored to generate sales/engagement.

2. Boomy lows can be fixed in 2 ways. If you want tighter palm muting, is the Input EQ to cut lows. If you are simply looking to dial back frequencies, look for Leon Todd's multiband compressor technique which is great at smoothing out lows without making things sound thin.

3. Harshness beyond the treble tone control for me typically happens in 2 places. You can try reducing the presence control or mess around with a parametric EQ and a notch to find the specific frequency, typically somewhere between 3-5k, that's bothering on you and adjust.

Yeah I know what you're saying but I don't think what I'm watching is overly produced, I just think the real amps are making a slightly warmer browner sound in the mids and treble but still nice distortion etc, and nicer lows.

Yep I've messed with EQ, presence, and it really changes the tone of course, I just can't quite get to where I want. I normally find that as soon as I start cutting with EQ, the tone actually sounds a bit less desirable. I'll try the input EQ though, as I haven't messed with that before.

 

[Paulzx]

For the harsh treble, you may want to experiment with a high shelf around 2k-3k at about -3dB as opposed to a basic high cut that has a more drastic drop off. That'll bring everything down beyond the cutoff point a little smoother.

Will try this. I have discovered pulling down the 4k band by 1db definitely tames the harsh trebly sound a hell of a lot

 

[Greg Ferguson]

The symptoms sound very much like what happens when EQing at low volume and then playing at stage volume.

From the Wiki:

Fletcher-Munson​

The Fletcher-Munson curve, or Equal-loudness contour is the scientific name for the fact that human ears perceive sound at low volume levels differently than at higher levels. This is VERY important when dialing in tones.

When tweaking tone at low volume levels, a player often turns up treble and bass. This is what the "Loudness" switch on older home stereo systems did.

When the volume is turned up, those high and low frequencies get harsh and boomy. That guitar sound then competes with cymbals, and will lose. Also, the guitar competes with the bass guitar, and will lose.

This is not specific to FRFR systems, but FRFR amplification makes the Fletcher-Munson effect much more apparent because it amplifies a broad frequency range. In comparison, a traditional guitar speaker operates as a filter, with quite a narrow frequency range.

[…]

Above, we concluded that the FRFR sound has an extended frequency range, which is often undesirable for a guitar sound and can suffer from the Fletcher-Munson curve when not dialed in correctly.

The solution to these issues is really simple: Don't dial in too much top and bottom end, and always dial in your live guitar tones at gig levels, 90dB and higher. Do NOT expect excellent "bedroom" or headphone tones to translate well to a rehearsal room or stage because sound changes as the volume changes. What sounds dull at low volume, may sound fantastic at high volume. And remember that the guitar is a "mid" instrument, so focus on the midrange.

So, how do you tweak the sound for FRFR? Here are some guidelines and options:

• Use the Low Cut and High Cut parameters in the Cab block to block undesirable top and bottom end. Common values are cutting lows, using "high-pass" between 120-150Hz and cutting highs, or "low-pass", between 5-10kHz. This may seem to make your guitar sound bad or dull by itself, but it will improve its sound within the entire mix.
• Put a PEQ or GEQ block at the end of the grid and block the lower and higher frequencies.
• Adjust Depth/Bass and Treble/Presence in the Amp block.
• Boost the mids. For example: Put a PEQ at the end of the grid, set a band, using Peaking when using the first or last band, to 770 hz, Q at 0.35, Gain between 2 and 4 dB. Or, bump the middle slider of a 5-band Passive GEQ.
• Use the Cut switch in the Amp block.
• Add the Factory 1 - 1x4 Pig 57 IR to add body to the sound.

---

PS - Another thing that can help when using Dyna-Cabs, is to get the microphone away from the cap. A mic sitting on the cap is directly in the firing line for all the highs coming from the speaker. A mic directly against the grill cloth is also caught in the throes of the proximity effect so the lows are overly emphasized.

Searching for information about using the various mics in studios can help as it applies to our use with Dyna-Cabs. For instance, the Royer 121 documentation talks about how proximity affects that microphone, and at about 6" from the speaker the proximity effect is gone. 15cm=5.91" and 16cm=6.299" so somewhere 'round there. As always, use your ears because some proximity effect gives the speaker some low-end punch too.

The SM57 ("Dynamic 1") is pretty screechy IMO but proximity helps its low-end. I like the SM7 ("Dynamic 2") and I've started messing with the "Condenser" mic, a Soyuz 023, because it seems to hit a nice balance between the lows and highs and that along with fiddling with the 121 pulled back a bit is talking nice to me lately.