How to get a more natural sound (Plexi) ?

[berdri]

Totally overlooked concept !

IMO most new/intermediate e-guitarists tend to brush over the idea that the sound in their head is a specific certain way of listening/recording….

We need to distinguish the sound charecteristics of what we are going for so we can match to what we desire.

Is it a close mic’d cab (little to no room audible) through a specific speaker (headphone, monitors etc)

OR

you heard the tone in the room with the actual guitar rig

OR

a mic’d room sound through a specifc speaker (headphones , studio monitors etc)

Or some mix of mic’d room + mic’d cab through again your choice of speakers at that time…

Atleast this was a “revelation” for me in my tone chasing journey once I distinguished that fact

That's interesting insights here. I guess what I pursuing is mostly the second one, hearing like the tone in the room with the actual gear.

 

[Joshua_L]

The secret sauce for me is the Irs you use. I was never happy until I found the right ir vendor/pack and made my own mixes.
And of course the right balance between what your ears, your guitar, your playing etc.

Here's what I use at home, I think it sounds pretty natural, some would had more high end but that's the way I like it when I play. just a 59slp.

 

[berdri]

The secret sauce for me is the Irs you use. I was never happy until I found the right ir vendor/pack and made my own mixes.
And of course the right balance between what your ears, your guitar, your playing etc.

Here's what I use at home, I think it sounds pretty natural, some would had more high end but that's the way I like it when I play. just a 59slp.

Nice sound, I like your single coils sounds, pretty crispy

 

[Andrew Male]

I've got the Graham Coxon plexi sound down almost perfectly using the 1959SLP JUMPED, very satisfied, no problem with "sparkle". The biggest thing I found is fine tuning the IRs and getting the lo and hi-cut right.

 

[BTU]

Maybe the Tone Matching block or Capturing feature would help you?

I've captured my real cab with various mic positions (including rear and some room irs) and made couple of mixes for different contexts. I've tweaked some speaker params in Amp block just to match it for my cab and now it's my go-to tone for recording and practicing.

 

[berdri]

Well guys, I'm currently playing with the tips of removing the cab blocks and replace by a low pass filter and an EQ. I have to say it sounds way more natural sounding to my ear, the best I achieved so far with the AXE FX (I found a video on G66). I could send the preset to you if you want to have a look but still I think it needs some proper refinements, I feel there is something to do still. I also managed the level, it was way over 0dB, so I capped it at -0,5dB average from what I see on the Preset Level Tools.

 

[R.D.]

I’d be interested in trying it ….

I loaded up the 1st one that you posted yesterday …. I made a bunch of changes to it that got me pretty close to the Plexi sounds that I go after. But, outside of the gain staging comment I didn’t list out the changes I made because tone is SO subjective and I didn’t want to come off as criticizing your approach.

And I’ll make a HUGE disclaimer now …. ‘Cause I’m not saying that this is what happened to you, but I will say that something similar happens to me ALL THE TIME !

The Axe-Fx III is SO powerful and Cliff provides us w/ SO many options to craft our sound(s). That sometimes I start changing parameters just because I CAN. Then before I know it, I’m so far down the rabbit hole and I can’t tell anymore if something actually changed for the better ( or not ) ?

I took your original preset ( which sounded blanketed to me ) and reduced the gain of the Normal channel …. Then I backed off all the IR smoothing and changed the HALL sound in the CAB block over to the ROOM sound …. Immediately, it started sounding more like the Marshall Plexi tone in my head.

A lot of folks around here have reminded me many times …, try to get to your sound by just using the AMP & CAB blocks first. And choose your IR very, VERY carefully ! Once those options are exhausted …, if you still aren’t there yet …, then and only then start in w/ the advanced “stuff” !

99% of the time, simpler is going to be better ….

Also, can you tell us what your speaker preferences are ? Are you a Greenback or a V30 person ? 4x12” or 2x12”, etc; etc; ….

Everything you can tell us, will help us help you !

THANKS !

 

[ApocalypticKatana]

That's interesting insights here. I guess what I pursuing is mostly the second one, hearing like the tone in the room with the actual gear.

Right, so while recorded references, information, gear settings etc online will get you in the direction/path of what you’re looking for…

Ultimately you have to judge yourself in the room with your gear because it’s the same way you heard your reference!

It’s not really fair to compare it to a “recording of a sound (mic’d cab and or room through whatever medium you listened with) because of physics

there are tricks of course to make a mic’d cab sound like in the room sound but your skills/knowledge can only take you so far (see linked video)

If you want a amp/cab in the room sound, just get a cabinet and P.A with your modeller of choice.

Or if you have studio monitors maybe try this trick as someone already said but in video format



It’s similar concept to the smoothing parameter you like but much more versatile and powerful!

And a Quote from the man himself

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/amp-in-the-room.141579/

EDIT: I see you’re already doing the trick but I’ll just leave this message here

 

[ApocalypticKatana]

You're never going to get a full-range monitor to sound like an amp in the room regardless of the IR used. One reason for this is dispersion. A traditional guitar cabinet has a beam pattern that decreases with increasing frequency. This means less high frequencies when listening off-axis. A full-range monitor will have more highs. Now some will argue that if you capture the traditional cab off-axis in the far field then you'll get the same thing but you won't because the monitor is not interacting with the environment in the same way. The traditional cab will send less frequency content to off-axis which is then reflected off the floor, walls and ceiling. The monitor will send more highs off-axis that are reflected. Our hearing relies a LOT on the spatial cues of reflection and the reflections will not be the same.

Compound the above with the fact that 99.9% of IRs are near field captures which sound nothing like the far field.

I believe trying to get a monitor to do amp in the room is a lesson in futility. If you really want that sound use a traditional guitar cab.

Relevant quote

 

[berdri]

Right, so while recorded references, information, gear settings etc online will get you in the direction/path of what you’re looking for…

Ultimately you have to judge yourself in the room with your gear because it’s the same way you heard your reference!

It’s not really fair to compare it to a “recording of a sound (mic’d cab and or room through whatever medium you listened with) because of physics

there are tricks of course to make a mic’d cab sound like in the room sound but your skills/knowledge can only take you so far (see linked video)

If you want a amp/cab in the room sound, just get a cabinet and P.A with your modeller of choice.

Or if you have studio monitors maybe try this trick as someone already said but in video format



It’s similar concept to the smoothing parameter you like but much more versatile and powerful!

And a Quote from the man himself

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/amp-in-the-room.141579/

EDIT: I see you’re already doing the trick but I’ll just leave this message here

I’d be interested in trying it ….

I loaded up the 1st one that you posted yesterday …. I made a bunch of changes to it that got me pretty close to the Plexi sounds that I go after. But, outside of the gain staging comment I didn’t list out the changes I made because tone is SO subjective and I didn’t want to come off as criticizing your approach.

And I’ll make a HUGE disclaimer now …. ‘Cause I’m not saying that this is what happened to you, but I will say that something similar happens to me ALL THE TIME !

The Axe-Fx III is SO powerful and Cliff provides us w/ SO many options to craft our sound(s). That sometimes I start changing parameters just because I CAN. Then before I know it, I’m so far down the rabbit hole and I can’t tell anymore if something actually changed for the better ( or not ) ?

I took your original preset ( which sounded blanketed to me ) and reduced the gain of the Normal channel …. Then I backed off all the IR smoothing and changed the HALL sound in the CAB block over to the ROOM sound …. Immediately, it started sounding more like the Marshall Plexi tone in my head.

A lot of folks around here have reminded me many times …, try to get to your sound by just using the AMP & CAB blocks first. And choose your IR very, VERY carefully ! Once those options are exhausted …, if you still aren’t there yet …, then and only then start in w/ the advanced “stuff” !

99% of the time, simpler is going to be better ….

Also, can you tell us what your speaker preferences are ? Are you a Greenback or a V30 person ? 4x12” or 2x12”, etc; etc; ….

Everything you can tell us, will help us help you !

THANKS !

I guess yes the approach of the filter and the EQ seems to work the best for me. I'll try to tweak the stuff from there and see if I can achieve what I need. So far I did a loop and compared both approaches (dyna cab and Filter/EQ) and send that to my friend who is a professional musician in rock/metal, he told me that he liked the first sample which was the Filter/EQ but I didn't told him, he said to me before I revealed the answer that it was the one souding more natural. So clearly I think there is something here to work on, and a big plus is that my companion, she told me the filter/EQ sounded better to her ears that gives another layer of answer as she is abosuletly not into these thing, she don't even know what Marshall is so imagine. Anyway, her point of view add deepness in the legitimacy of the filter/EQ approach that's what I'm saying.
As for the

 

[ApocalypticKatana]

I guess yes the approach of the filter and the EQ seems to work the best for me. I'll try to tweak the stuff from there and see if I can achieve what I need. So far I did a loop and compared both approaches (dyna cab and Filter/EQ) and send that to my friend who is a professional musician in rock/metal, he told me that he liked the first sample which was the Filter/EQ but I didn't told him, he said to me before I revealed the answer that it was the one souding more natural. So clearly I think there is something here to work on, and a big plus is that my companion, she told me the filter/EQ sounded better to her ears that gives another layer of answer as she is abosuletly not into these thing, she don't even know what Marshall is so imagine. Anyway, her point of view add deepness in the legitimacy of the filter/EQ approach that's what I'm saying.
As for the

What sounds good to you is good ,

I’m glad you found a solution of sort

 

[giantslayer]

I have two thoughts:
1. Speaker compression, drive, and thump default settings are pretty low/conservative. Turning those up can add more character.
2. If you prefer an EQ over an IR, it could be that you don’t like the microphone or how the microphone is set up. SM57 imparts a ton of coloration and close mic’ing doesn’t sound natural.

I’ve found the most natural sound I can get “in the box” is using a dynacab with the ribbon mic at max distance, position to taste (around 5-7), and no high/low pass.