Helix 3.5 New Cab Engine is Awesome! Fractal needs to catch up!

M

Mark Al

Inspired
Bear in mind, I am an avid fan of Fractal Audio and longtime owner of multiple Axe III. Now...:

I have long been argued/complained about the archaic cab/IR selection UX in Fractal... True, there are thousands of slots, but the workflow of selecting, auditioning, trying out different IRs are so counter-productive that most users simply sticks with a handful of IRs they are familiar with....

With the 3.5 update, Line6 completely re-implement their IR engine and UX, following the same idea/approach Quad Cortex did, which has been widely championed as a much productive UX for cab/IRs. It allows users to select cab type, mic type, mic distance, positioning/angle, giving user a very intuitive, familiar and consistent way of changing/trying cab/IRs.

I still prefer Fractal's amp modeling than Helix, but seriously, Fractal needs to allocation some focus/resource to re-think about their cab/IR story...
 
It’s not just the cab UI. You could say the same thing about a number of other aspects of the AxeFX user experience (preset management, preset editing, daw integration, I/O routing, etc). Ten years ago Fractal was a pioneer, blazing a brave new trail of amp modeling accuracy. That accuracy was astounding. Nothing else came close. Because this amazing modeling was unique in the marketplace, the user experience was of little consequence.

Today, things have changed. The AxeFX no longer stands alone as the only modeler with high end accuracy. You could argue, and I do, that it has not been surpassed, but the fact is the amp modeling accuracy differences among the high end modelers are getting pretty small.

I’m well aware I sound like a broken record, repeating this over and over on this forum, but in this changing climate, IMHO, it’s user experience that will set the high end modelers apart from each other, not modeling accuracy.

However, I’m also aware the identity of Fractal Audio is tied very closely to high end modeling presented in a utilitarian manner. Far be it from me to say what Fractal”s product strategy should be, but it’s getting increasingly difficult to see how someone like me, for whom the user experience is important, fits into Fractal”s future.
 
I would be interested to know if the new Helix cab uses individual IRs of each mic position and distance from the speaker or have applied algorithms or elaborate EQs to simulate them. It would likely require a very large amount of storage space for IRs of every mic location and distance for every mic on each speaker.

I've always looked a FAS devices as professional gear and as such requires some effort on my part. I need to organize the IRs in a way that works for me. It also means I need to learn what the different mic locations and distances sound like.

I get it, some people want things 'easier' and from the standpoint of being unaware of how these different settings affect the sound, I suppose it makes sense to a certain degree. That said, even if they're using individual IRs, all they did was add knobs to cycle through each option without seeing a list. Depending upon how you organize your IRs, a similar thing can be accomplished but without the knobs.
 
Mark Al said:
most users simply sticks with a handful of IRs they are familiar with
Click to expand...
This is a feature, not a bug.
The AxeFX is a professional tool, catered to music professionals whose job is playing music, whether that's live or in the studio. Their job isn't flipping through IRs. In my opinion, the AxeFX's UI does the job well, and pushes you to use your ears, rather than your eyes or some IR's specs when selecting one. This is a Good Thing™
 
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the graphic ui that many modelers/ir loaders use is actually a gimmick. behind it there is a system of IRs that the software blends when you move the little mic cursor or change something in the ui. at least that's what neural does with the plugins and i assume with the QC and these IRs (at least from their soldano vst) have also leaked into pirate websites and you can download them.
i find fractal's ui much more straightforward and professional looking and much more integratable with how the pro industry works with cab emulation.
also the amount of tweaking on each ir and on the cab block in general that fas allows is beyond anything else only comparable with purpose specific software like the two notes stuff
 
Just got back from a studio session, where we played mic positions for drums and guitar cabs. Many of us are really familiar with this workflow, eg find a cab, get certain mics, and position them certain ways in front of the cab.

How much nicer would it be if Fractal can model that same workflow in a UX familiar to all of us…? I am not arguing anything about the implementation, but it’s hard to argue against such UX that Helix and QC are adopting.

With the current flat IR list, I indeed try to order my IR in certain way, to mimic the workflow above, but it could/should definitely be improved. And it doesn’t need to be an either-or thing, ie, keep the custom IR flat list, but build a new cab/IR workflow/UX in addition.

In fact, The current Cab/IR selection workflow is so counter productive, that during re-amping, I would often rather use EQ to adjust the tone in mix vs trying to find another IR, which is often a crap shoot without a consistent/systemic way to audition them…(while I am sitting there thinking I wish to just move that virtual mic off axis a little bit with the same cab)

Cab/IR are at least 50% of the final tonal result, we need to give a bit more love to its design and UX, while Fractal‘s amp Modeling is already top notch and are currently pursuing marginal returns, and that may be someone’s passion, but might not be the optimal product strategy, I am afraid.
 
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Mikko has been my answer to IRs / IR selection. I'm quite happy using that outside the box. As far as the rest, I don't see any hardware based modeller competition that comes anywhere near the full Fractal Axfx3 package of FX, amp modelling, signal routing capability, hardware IO, and horsepower for
significantly less $ (if there was, I'd be there). My personal plastic crystal ball predicts plugins as the encroaching threat to hw based modelling.
 
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sprint said:
Mikko has been my answer to UI selection. I'm quite happy using that outside the box. As far as the rest, I don't see any hardware based modeller competition that comes anywhere near the full Fractal package of FX, amp modelling, and horsepower for
significantly less $ (if there was, I'd be there). My personal plastic crystal ball predicts plugins as the encroaching threat to hw based modelling.
Click to expand...
Mikko's UI selection UX is exactly what I am advocating here, e.g. some similar UX like that to be supported by Fractal natively.

For studio work, reamping etc, yeah, when I don't care about playing latency, touch sensitivity etc, as long as the final mix sounds good, sure, plugins are more than fine.
 
I have the two notes torpedo captor x which allows to create that dynamic ir but i discovered that if you don't know anything about microphones, what they do, how position, you could waste the same time as looking for an ir with pleasant sound to it...
 
I'd argue that helix needs to catch up with fractal's recent speaker modeling algorithms, i.e drive, thump, compliance, compression, impedance and break up.

But to your point about a better UI for the IR's, as Joker said " That said, even if they're using individual IRs, all they did was add knobs to cycle through each option without seeing a list"

If anything the stock IR list makes choosing simpler, if you want more IR "positions" just get it from a 3rd party seller with those endless list of IR variety that tells you the relative position anyway.

Also Fractal dropped the whole mic modelling thing going from the AX2 To the AX3 see the source on what's gone section...

https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Comparing_the_Axe-Fx_III_to_the_Axe-Fx_II
 
The stock cabs on the Helix prior to this update were pretty ordinary. They're better now but not life changing.

I do like the way the cabs are organized by size and type, and something similar with the FAS factory cabs would be pretty useful. That's why the wish list exists right ;)
 
I don't have any issue with the Fractal UI. It's a pro piece of gear and the longer you spend with it the easier it gets

The Helix editor can't touch AxeEdit. The Helix one with the sliders made me think I was selecting what attributes my Avatar would have in a game
 
And Line 6 should implement Fractal standard modelling.

Honestly - since I got Fractal I’ve not looked at Line 6, but they’ve always been very good at marketing and applying glitter. This looks the same.

If you want this you can use Mikko, I have it, it’s great but I tend to stick to IRs to be honest (likely I don’t know what I’m doing enough)
 
Mark Al said:
Bear in mind, I am an avid fan of Fractal Audio and longtime owner of multiple Axe III. Now...:

I have long been argued/complained about the archaic cab/IR selection UX in Fractal... True, there are thousands of slots, but the workflow of selecting, auditioning, trying out different IRs are so counter-productive that most users simply sticks with a handful of IRs they are familiar with....

With the 3.5 update, Line6 completely re-implement their IR engine and UX, following the same idea/approach Quad Cortex did, which has been widely championed as a much productive UX for cab/IRs. It allows users to select cab type, mic type, mic distance, positioning/angle, giving user a very intuitive, familiar and consistent way of changing/trying cab/IRs.

I still prefer Fractal's amp modeling than Helix, but seriously, Fractal needs to allocation some focus/resource to re-think about their cab/IR story...
Click to expand...
I’ve experimented with the plugins that started this whole feature. In my opinion, you start out thinking wow… but end up loading the same third party go to cab IRs anyways after you test them head to head….
-Cheers
 
@Mark Al what if i told you that until 3.5 the Helix IR's sucked...like really sucked...and that this update is one of "catching up"...

That said if it works for you and you're having fun keep at it!
 
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