For Those Who Struggle with Traditional IRs

State of Epicicity

Fractal Fanatic
I’m someone who struggles with traditional IRs often sounding harsh and dull, and I think the problem is due to unusual resonances in my guitar itself.

So for me the most effective solution is two fold: capturing IRs from plugins that simulate a movable mic in front of a cab, where I first find the sweetest spot I can, with the least harshness and greatest character for my application, then applying a high level of Smoothing in the cab Block to remove any sort of “phasiness,” if you will. I also like to trim IRs to remove extra room sound, often to a length of 512. To my ears, this creates a warm yet present sound not overwhelmed by the IR creator’s room.

With this method, I feel like I’m matching the IR to the unusual frequency peaks and valleys of my guitar, making everything else about dialing in tones pretty effortless. The Cab Blocks I’ve set this way are the basis for me to create sweet tones that require no EQ at all with my guitar, because the IR spot I’ve captured, combined with the way I’ve refined it with Smoothing and trimming, takes over those duties. I still like EQ as a character altering tool if I want, but it’s never necessary just to yield a pleasing sound, just a different sound.

For me, with this method, EQ goes from being a utilitarian necessity in the way a mix engineer might have to use it to correct an inherent problem, to a creative tool in the way that same engineer might use it to create a particular feeling, to enhance an aspect of a performance.

Another method to approach IRs that do not gel with your guitar might be to use EQ blocks immediately after the Input Block to match the guitar to the IR first, more closely to align your guitar to whatever guitars the IR creator used to find their sweet spots. This of course would just have to be entirely by ear until you find that harshness and phasiness disappear.

I feel the converse is true, that if I were to find the sweet spots on a real cab and mics with my guitar and capture themss as IRs, that those IRs would then sound harsh and phasey to others who try them. To me an IR cannot have empirical sweetness; I think it’s entirely contextual, like every other thing in audio engineering. One has to flow with the source, and one size does not fit all.

It’s akin to the refrain I heard repeatedly on early episodes of Pensado’s place, where engineers would balk at the idea of creating presets, because to them each sound source creates its own context so severely that they believed it really ought be treated entirely as its own ball of wax. To me an IR is an audio plugin preset in this context.

This is just my own theory about it, and I could easily be misunderstanding something fundamental, but this occurred to me after experiencing many situations in which a player with good ears would post a recording via YouTube or SoundCloud as well its Fractal preset, and it would sound great with them playing, but it would sound dull and wrong and harsh and stupid when I plugged in, although I was copping the same licks and riffs, playing through the same preset with the same IRs.
 
I also have been getting the best sound from capturing IR's from software like Two Notes.
I have to be careful to make sure that the sound translates. I'll find out when I next mix something.
I wish the Fm3 had the cab smoothing sounds like it could be useful
 
For guitar resonance I usually put a PEQ at the beginning of the chain and the RTA at the end. With the IR I like loaded in the cab block and all the amp settings at noon.

I go and start editing the PEQ and find my LP guitars have a big one at 300hz, so I narrow it on that frequency and pull out just what I need to get it right and use the RTA to double check. Sometimes I need to dial out 2 times or 4 times that same freq, but not always.

My PRS has one at 450-500 and I have to do the same with it.

Once that is done I can go and change the tone knobs on the amp to get it dialed in.

If the resonant frequency is below 100, just use the low cut block and set the LFO to grab a little below it and a little above the frequency.

You can then start with a pretty clean slate or a flatter response so you aren't pulling a ton out of the amp EQ or a PEQ after.

This is just me and my experience from years of recording and live work. In my racks I always had 2 31 band eqs. One before the amp and one either in the loop or after my preamp and before my power amp each had very different uses, but usually similar to what I posted above.
 
This is just my own theory about it, and I could easily be misunderstanding something fundamental, but this occurred to me after experiencing many situations in which a player with good ears would post a recording via YouTube or SoundCloud as well its Fractal preset, and it would sound great with them playing, but it would sound dull and wrong and harsh and stupid when I plugged in, although I was copping the same licks and riffs, playing through the same preset with the same IRs.
So, it is true.....tone is in the hands?
I am a very firm believer in this.
 
For guitar resonance I usually put a PEQ at the beginning of the chain and the RTA at the end. With the IR I like loaded in the cab block and all the amp settings at noon.

I go and start editing the PEQ and find my LP guitars have a big one at 300hz, so I narrow it on that frequency and pull out just what I need to get it right and use the RTA to double check. Sometimes I need to dial out 2 times or 4 times that same freq, but not always.

My PRS has one at 450-500 and I have to do the same with it.

Once that is done I can go and change the tone knobs on the amp to get it dialed in.

If the resonant frequency is below 100, just use the low cut block and set the LFO to grab a little below it and a little above the frequency.

You can then start with a pretty clean slate or a flatter response so you aren't pulling a ton out of the amp EQ or a PEQ after.

This is just me and my experience from years of recording and live work. In my racks I always had 2 31 band eqs. One before the amp and one either in the loop or after my preamp and before my power amp each had very different uses, but usually similar to what I posted above.

Ah, many thanks for this! I love the idea, and I’ll give this one a try. I guess with this PEQ you can then keep it in your block library to use right after the input in any preset; very cool!
 
So, it is true.....tone is in the hands?
I am a very firm believer in this.

I think the hands are essential to the tone, but also every other part of the chain. Like picks, e.g., are huge! Every few years I compare picks to find what sounds best for my playing at the time, and it’s unbelievable how much they determine everything else about the tone. But of course your picking hand can attack the string in so many different ways, and that changes the tone profoundly too!

But in this case what I really mean is the guitar and pickups themselves, in my case, definitely have something odd going on. I shouldn’t sound this off from examples I hear of people posting recordings with their presets, when I use the same IR.

Don’t get me wrong though; I get the best tones ever for myself, the only thing is, I just have to dial them in entirely myself from scratch. But I still love breaking down presets to learn general ideas about tone; I think it’s important education for me.
 
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I think the hands are essential to the tone, but also every other part of the chain. Like picks, e.g., are huge! Every few years I compare picks to find what sounds best for my playing at the time, and it’s unbelievable how much they determine everything else about the tone. But of course your picking hand can attack the string in so many different ways, and that changes the tone profoundly too!

But in this case what I really mean is the guitar and pickups themselves, in my case, definitely have something odd going on. I shouldn’t sound this off from examples I hear of people posting recordings with their presets, when I use the same IR.

Don’t get me wrong though; I get the best tones ever fit myself, the only thing is, I just have to dial them in entirely myself from scratch. But I still love breaking down presets to learn general ideas about tone; I think it’s important education for me.
Yes, educating yourself is the key to your own guitar tone. I've been playing and tone sculpting since the late 80's. I spent a lot of time using preamps and power amps with variations of SS and tube for each. I would so much be in tonal bliss with the Axe FX if Cliff would allow the separation of the preamp and power amp for each model. For instance, I have been a Marshall JMP-1 preamp user for a very long time (since the late 90's). I love that Cliff finally got those models correct. The only thing that lacks is that I can't get the exact power amp section which I prefer for the higher gain stuff....which is the Marshall JCM 2K DSL. I'm also a fan of the BBE between the JMP-1 and the power amp. I have found a bit of a work around though. I made an IR of my DSL power amp section and run it with the IR player Block after the JMP-1 model and before the speaker IR. It adds that extra girth that the JMP-1 model's power amp section is lacking. The power amp model on the JMP-1 is obviously a more vintage style.
Anyhow, I know this thread was about IRs and yes, LOL, I have a few things to comment about that!
I am actually one of the owners of an IR company that is not well known...hint, it starts with a "Z".
I learned a few things while doing that project.
I think the future of IRs is to make them with tube power amps and capture not just mic /mic pre/ mic position/ room is it needs to be dynamic.
In other words, either a boat load of IRs for each mic position or some kind of player that can react to the volume the preamp is hitting the power section and the volume the speaker is getting and selecting a correct IR for each case. The frequency response of an IR being created changes with what power amp is used and how much volume is used.
 
Ah, many thanks for this! I love the idea, and I’ll give this one a try. I guess with this PEQ you can then keep it in your block library to use right after the input in any preset; very cool!

Yes, exactly.

Some guitars have such a strong resonance that it sets off its harmonics as well, so just double check that with the RTA. If you have to dial out more than 3 frequencies something is weird.

I think you will be happy with the results.

I feel what you were doing with IRs (while a good idea at solving an issue) will show warts when you use that IR with anything else. The point of an IR is to capture the cabinet, mic at a position, with a certain mic preamp (any eq is said preamp) as accurately as possible.

In the real world not all amps, guitars and cabs play well together in the first place.

I played Marshall Amps with Crate V30 loaded 4x12s with Ibanez guitars in the 80s. I could not put a Marshall Cab in my rig because it was fizz and boom city. I had used crate amps in the late 70s early 80s as a kid and met with them when I was getting sponsors in the late 80s. I tried a cab they were prototyping and fell in love with it. It was not as mean as a Mesa, but still had good low mids without booming and it smoothed out the 2.5 ear bleed, but still had a clear 5k gurgle.

When I stopped playing my emg loaded Ibanez guitars in the 90s and switched back to mid-hot passives something was off....

I was getting the guitar resonance picked up in my new guitars that were now mahogany and not basswood plus the passive pickups.


My point is everything matters in tone. I find the less you can do to fix something the better the final results.

Also don't be afraid to pull out 6DB of a resonant frequency, if it gets you what you are after. I do that with my Les Paul and it sounds as it should you would never tell I did that early in the chain.
 
Yes, educating yourself is the key to your own guitar tone. I've been playing and tone sculpting since the late 80's. I spent a lot of time using preamps and power amps with variations of SS and tube for each. I would so much be in tonal bliss with the Axe FX if Cliff would allow the separation of the preamp and power amp for each model. For instance, I have been a Marshall JMP-1 preamp user for a very long time (since the late 90's). I love that Cliff finally got those models correct. The only thing that lacks is that I can't get the exact power amp section which I prefer for the higher gain stuff....which is the Marshall JCM 2K DSL. I'm also a fan of the BBE between the JMP-1 and the power amp. I have found a bit of a work around though. I made an IR of my DSL power amp section and run it with the IR player Block after the JMP-1 model and before the speaker IR. It adds that extra girth that the JMP-1 model's power amp section is lacking. The power amp model on the JMP-1 is obviously a more vintage style.
Anyhow, I know this thread was about IRs and yes, LOL, I have a few things to comment about that!
I am actually one of the owners of an IR company that is not well known...hint, it starts with a "Z".
I learned a few things while doing that project.
I think the future of IRs is to make them with tube power amps and capture not just mic /mic pre/ mic position/ room is it needs to be dynamic.
In other words, either a boat load of IRs for each mic position or some kind of player that can react to the volume the preamp is hitting the power section and the volume the speaker is getting and selecting a correct IR for each case. The frequency response of an IR being created changes with what power amp is used and how much volume is used.

Thanks for your thoughts on this Michael. It’s an interesting approach, the idea of using an amp model with its power amp section followed by a cab IR made with a power amp section, Brescia you end up with a sound colored by two power amps in series. I can’t really comment either way on this, other than to quote, “if it sounds good, it is good!”
 
Yes, exactly.

Some guitars have such a strong resonance that it sets off its harmonics as well, so just double check that with the RTA. If you have to dial out more than 3 frequencies something is weird.

I think you will be happy with the results.

I feel what you were doing with IRs (while a good idea at solving an issue) will show warts when you use that IR with anything else. The point of an IR is to capture the cabinet, mic at a position, with a certain mic preamp (any eq is said preamp) as accurately as possible.

In the real world not all amps, guitars and cabs play well together in the first place.

I played Marshall Amps with Crate V30 loaded 4x12s with Ibanez guitars in the 80s. I could not put a Marshall Cab in my rig because it was fizz and boom city. I had used crate amps in the late 70s early 80s as a kid and met with them when I was getting sponsors in the late 80s. I tried a cab they were prototyping and fell in love with it. It was not as mean as a Mesa, but still had good low mids without booming and it smoothed out the 2.5 ear bleed, but still had a clear 5k gurgle.

When I stopped playing my emg loaded Ibanez guitars in the 90s and switched back to mid-hot passives something was off....

I was getting the guitar resonance picked up in my new guitars that were now mahogany and not basswood plus the passive pickups.


My point is everything matters in tone. I find the less you can do to fix something the better the final results.

Also don't be afraid to pull out 6DB of a resonant frequency, if it gets you what you are after. I do that with my Les Paul and it sounds as it should you would never tell I did that early in the chain.

Yeah, you have great points here:

For a time I transferred my set of Duncan Saturday Night Specials from my Washburn Trevor Rabin hardtail, where they sounded perfect, balanced, alive, and warm, to my Schecter Sun Valley Super Shredder with a Floyd, where the bridge brought out an ear gouging 2.3kHz. I was totally able to EQ that harshness out for the bridge, but that left the neck sounding hollow. I found that I really wanted to be able to switch freely between pickups (especially since I just always use the guitar’s entire control panel to adjust tone on the fly), so I abandoned the Pre EQ for that purpose. But that was just because of those pickups. Raising the bridge did help tremendously to mitigate the problem, which led me to understand that this Schecter could not tolerate a lower or medium output. Switching to high output Awesome Guitars Asymmetric Type A humbuckers totally brought in a sweetness to the guitar, very Les Paul-like.

But anyway, of course this idea of playing better with IRs is different than just eliminating one harsh frequency, as I had done before. With your idea I’d now look also at boosting the frequencies that the IRs like, through my preferred amps. This is a great idea. I wonder though about doing this always with the controls at noon, because something like a Plexi might not react well to that! It’s still worth a try anyway.

And you’re totally right, that it’s not like everything gels well in the real world anyway, so you shouldn’t expect everything to work well in any combination. But my problem was almost nothing sounded good in any combination with this guitar, unless I captured my own IR or used a small number that I found worked well with it, then still applying a ton of smoothing on top.

Now, the issue of creating a tone that sounds good on its own but doesn’t mix well: I think that applies universally, whether you EQ the guitar to play well with IRs, smooth a movable mic captured IR, or if your guitar sounds great with an IR with no tweaks at all. To me that’s just a law of nature in audio, that portions of a mix are part of a pie, and that any range of frequencies you give to one instrument or sound will steal from another; it’s truly a zero sum game. I don’t think that’s even worth considering.

For practicing, I just dial in tones to approximate just a plain amp in the room with me, minus reflections. But in a mix, you just have to be brutal and ruthless about being willing to slice and dice your frequencies in the guitar to play well with the band. If I started trying to practice with mix ready tones, I think I’d hate the act of practicing!
 
Yeah, you have great points here:

For a time I transferred my set of Duncan Saturday Night Specials from my Washburn Trevor Rabin hardtail, where they sounded perfect, balanced, alive, and warm, to my Schecter Sun Valley Super Shredder with a Floyd, where the bridge brought out an ear gouging 2.3kHz. I was totally able to EQ that harshness out for the bridge, but that left the neck sounding hollow. I found that I really wanted to be able to switch freely between pickups (especially since I just always use the guitar’s entire control panel to adjust tone on the fly), so I abandoned the Pre EQ for that purpose. But that was just because of those pickups. Raising the bridge did help tremendously to mitigate the problem, which led me to understand that this Schecter could not tolerate a lower or medium output. Switching to high output Awesome Guitars Asymmetric Type A humbuckers totally brought in a sweetness to the guitar, very Les Paul-like.

But anyway, of course this idea of playing better with IRs is different than just eliminating one harsh frequency, as I had done before. With your idea I’d now look also at boosting the frequencies that the IRs like, through my preferred amps. This is a great idea. I wonder though about doing this always with the controls at noon, because something like a Plexi might not react well to that! It’s still worth a try anyway.

And you’re totally right, that it’s not like everything gels well in the real world anyway, so you shouldn’t expect everything to work well in any combination. But my problem was almost nothing sounded good in any combination with this guitar, unless I captured my own IR or used a small number that I found worked well with it, then still applying a ton of smoothing on top.

Now, the issue of creating a tone that sounds good on its own but doesn’t mix well: I think that applies universally, whether you EQ the guitar to play well with IRs, smooth a movable mic captured IR, or if your guitar sounds great with an IR with no tweaks at all. To me that’s just a law of nature in audio, that portions of a mix are part of a pie, and that any range of frequencies you give to one instrument or sound will steal from another; it’s truly a zero sum game. I don’t think that’s even worth considering.

For practicing, I just dial in tones to approximate just a plain amp in the room with me, minus reflections. But in a mix, you just have to be brutal and ruthless about being willing to slice and dice your frequencies in the guitar to play well with the band. If I started trying to practice with mix ready tones, I think I’d hate the act of practicing!

The point of the amp controls at noon is not about sounding good.

You mentioned a Marshall, so let's stick with that.

A Marshall (most, but not all) with controls at noon means you have not boosted or cut anything. It means everything is basically at tonal zero you can go negative or positive in DB for each tonal control.

Find an IR that might help tame some of that plexi nastiness, say a V30 with a combo of a 121 and a 57, dial the 57 down a little in the cab block and cut some lows on the 121.
Hopefully it should sound somewhat flatter now.
You hear that resonance and should focus on it first. Now that you have that dialed out, you can start actually adjusting for the Tru tone you are after. If dialed out a little too much 200-400 for a resonance, switch the tone stack and add a small amount of depth in to bring it level. Want less or more high end dial it in, mids, you can never have enough... LOL

Fitting in, in a mix or live should be pretty easy. Usually you have bass below 150hz, kick too. Bass usually has a good punch around 300-330hz, so you have 200-230 for a rhythm guitar low end to fill in, but must be controlled. Then you have 600-4k to really play with, just leaving some room at 2-3k for the vocal high end and usually 500hz for vocals as well.

I usually boost 600hz about 2db for my rhythm guitars and 800-1.6 for my leads.

Each group will be different and each player you play with will be different, however most instruments fit in the same spaces, most of the time. You will just need to find the wholes you can fill.
 
The point of the amp controls at noon is not about sounding good.

You mentioned a Marshall, so let's stick with that.

A Marshall (most, but not all) with controls at noon means you have not boosted or cut anything. It means everything is basically at tonal zero you can go negative or positive in DB for each tonal control.

Find an IR that might help tame some of that plexi nastiness, say a V30 with a combo of a 121 and a 57, dial the 57 down a little in the cab block and cut some lows on the 121.
Hopefully it should sound somewhat flatter now.
You hear that resonance and should focus on it first. Now that you have that dialed out, you can start actually adjusting for the Tru tone you are after. If dialed out a little too much 200-400 for a resonance, switch the tone stack and add a small amount of depth in to bring it level. Want less or more high end dial it in, mids, you can never have enough... LOL

Fitting in, in a mix or live should be pretty easy. Usually you have bass below 150hz, kick too. Bass usually has a good punch around 300-330hz, so you have 200-230 for a rhythm guitar low end to fill in, but must be controlled. Then you have 600-4k to really play with, just leaving some room at 2-3k for the vocal high end and usually 500hz for vocals as well.

I usually boost 600hz about 2db for my rhythm guitars and 800-1.6 for my leads.

Each group will be different and each player you play with will be different, however most instruments fit in the same spaces, most of the time. You will just need to find the wholes you can fill.

Okay, I gotcha. Take care of the weird resonances first with your chosen amp with BMT at noon and relatively even IR of your chosen cab just basically to fix the inherent mismatch between your guitar and the amp model / IR combination. Then dial in your tone from there. Just use the settings at noon at first so things don’t inherently sound like shit.

Your information about the space in the mix is very helpful; I’ve bookmarked this for reference. Much appreciated!
 
@State of Epicicity Try viewing an IR like an audio engineer has mic’d the cab for you, and then just tweak your amp controls to get the sound you’re after. If an IR was captured correctly, it will sound identical to that microphone in that placement on that cab. When it comes to IRs, you’re looking for the basic “character” you want for your tone, and then use the amp controls to fine-tune your sound.

Look at presets as a guideline with the understanding that you’ll probably need to tweak the amp to suit your own guitar and playing technique. Since we all sound different, it’s perfectly normal to have to twist some knobs in order to get things sounding right for our personal needs.
 
@State of Epicicity Try viewing an IR like an audio engineer has mic’d the cab for you, and then just tweak your amp controls to get the sound you’re after. If an IR was captured correctly, it will sound identical to that microphone in that placement on that cab. When it comes to IRs, you’re looking for the basic “character” you want for your tone, and then use the amp controls to fine-tune your sound.

Look at presets as a guideline with the understanding that you’ll probably need to tweak the amp to suit your own guitar and playing technique. Since we all sound different, it’s perfectly normal to have to twist some knobs in order to get things sounding right for our personal needs.

Thanks so much Justin. I understand what you're saying, and that's how I approach it, but it still doesn't take away the harshness, no matter how much I tweak just the amp, and believe me, I have no problem moving knobs until I get what sounds right. If go farther and place EQ in many places, that can yield a good result with a traditional IR with my guitar, but Smoothing shortcuts that for me, and I find it much easier, much the way, e.g. Leon Todd creates a very simple preset in a few seconds without needing to reach for an EQ. And in his videos, he's using IRs that he's made, that match his guitars beautifully. For presets, I always like to make my own. I understand about tweaking someone else's if you like to start with that, but it's a matter of preference; I just like tabula rasa, and of course there's no right or wrong here. I never expect any piece of audio gear to sound good at all unless you fiddle with the knobs, no matter the context. And sometimes you have to fiddle a lot; it's just the nature of audio, and part of the adventure of it. But like I said, I'm part of the group where, if I use a traditional IR, it takes a lot of EQ plus Smoothing and trimming to get what sounds right to me. But if I were able to capture my own in a room, I think the sweet spots I'd find would be different than what's often captured. Or if I played with the guitar and pick of the IR creator, I'd get a great tone in no time at all, without the need for EQ to smooth out harshness. Again, just my conjecture about it.
 
This matter has nothing to do with a guitar's resonance.
I think because people have such a hard time trying to find any IR that sounds lively and clear, what people end up doing is trying to blame other things which won't solve the inherent issues of deadness that plague IRs in general. But it seems Two notes has solved a lot of the issues and made them sound quite amazing in my opinion with whatever they are doing with this dynIR stuff.
 
How do you measure/capture/identify such resonances? Capture the basic DI'ed tone and analyze?

That's a great question. I can only guess that unusual resonances are the answer, since other peoples' presets (I wish I was down with OPP) sound awful with my guitar, and traditional IRs often sound so harsh until I add a lot of smoothing. No, I wouldn't know where to start with an FFT or something like that. I'm guessing that if I just applying a liberal amount of EQ immediately after the input block, just going by my ears, I could take someone else's presets and make my guitar sound good with them. But I conjecture that the big reason is the reversal of the way you'd create a mic'd amp in a studio. Normally one would have a great tone, move a mic around a bunch until you found the sweet spot, and record. With this, you're using the sweet spot someone has set up with a particular guitar or set of guitars, through a particular amp(s), and I think it just can't apply well to your tone unless you happen to have a guitar and amp that sound similar to that of the IR or preset creator.

Not knocking IR creators at all, or preset creators. I'm just saying it takes a ton of smoothing for them not to sound bad with my guitar, so I then look to my guitar itself to be the cause, since so many people get great results. And I've tried every other kind of tweak: extreme amp settings, EQ at every possible point in the chain, but nothing works for me as magically as simply adding smoothing.

But I've also largely been away from my guitar for a few months now while we're moving into a house, so I totally mean to try @jamesmarshall's suggestions when possible to see if they just sound better. And for that, I would just use a parametric EQ right after the input block and just sweep with different Qs and see what happens.
 
This matter has nothing to do with a guitar's resonance.
I think because people have such a hard time trying to find any IR that sounds lively and clear, what people end up doing is trying to blame other things which won't solve the inherent issues of deadness that plague IRs in general. But it seems Two notes has solved a lot of the issues and made them sound quite amazing in my opinion with whatever they are doing with this dynIR stuff.
“dynIR” is a marketing term. It is just a cute way of describing the modern interface of cabinet plugins letting you move a virtual mic around the virtual speaker.

Two notes is doing nothing unique or special. Their IR’s do not magically sound better than everyone else’s.
 
OP, what pickups are in your guitar?

I installed a Fishman Classic humbucker set in my Carvin guitar and the guitar now has seemingly more treble than I have ever heard from a guitar. More than my cousins Tele.

It is a lot harder to dial in tones than it should be. Much harder than my other Kiesel to find an IR that doesn’t sound painfully bright and bad.

The Kiesel with any SM57 IR I have by itself, is less bright than using the Carvin with any Royer 121 impulses by themselves.

Have you changed pickups in this guitar ?
 
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