As usual, I strayed from the beaten paths

[Joe Bfstplk]

Link to image: https://v-z-a.com/sites/v-z-a.com/files/20191102_224812.jpg

Just got the Spacestation XL today for my FRFR speaker setup.

It's got good thump on presets that go there (will likely have to adjust a bit of thump out of my HIWATT preset), and it does amazing stereo imaging throughout the room, from one cab. It has a 12" driver biamped with coaxial tweeter firing through the middle of the voice coil, like many others, pushing out the sum of left and right in mono. The difference is the side speakers (and the amp that drives them) being fed the differences between the left and right channels. Perty much the mid-side stereo microphone in reverse. My ridiculously lush chorus group of blocks sounds amazing through this thing. As I push the controller pedal forward to bring it in, the guitar stops sounding like it is coming from the speaker, and sounds like it is literally everywhere. Leslie sounds amazing, too, once you bump the stereo spread up from the factory 50% default to around 120%....

 

[savaitti]

Nice! I've been interested in these for a while. Doesn't look that big under the Axe III, I somehow thought it was much bigger. I could easily live with that, and it works as a nice stand for the Axe, too.

I am sure it does wonders to stereo sounds. But how do you think it works with completely dry mono signal? Is the sound comparable to CLR or other decent traditional FRFR cab? Is the sound dispersion any wider? I could see a potential problem in changing from room filling stereo preset to a dry preset, if the sound seems to "shrink" from the room into the corner (like with normal cab). Have you tried to creating dry stereo patches (no chorus, reverb or delays etc.) with maybe 2 cabs or exciter? Would these work (for spreading the sound)?

 

[yek]

@lqdsnddist

 

[chris]

pretty sure this isn't for actual left right "stereo" but more to get sound moving around the room, causing good phasing that makes it feel roomier or spacier.

i think it's a unique effect just from reading. would love to try one. but yeah it's a completely different "stereo" approach.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Nice! I've been interested in these for a while. Doesn't look that big under the Axe III, I somehow thought it was much bigger. I could easily live with that, and it works as a nice stand for the Axe, too.

I am sure it does wonders to stereo sounds. But how do you think it works with completely dry mono signal? Is the sound comparable to CLR or other decent traditional FRFR cab? Is the sound dispersion any wider? I could see a potential problem in changing from room filling stereo preset to a dry preset, if the sound seems to "shrink" from the room into the corner (like with normal cab). Have you tried to creating dry stereo patches (no chorus, reverb or delays etc.) with maybe 2 cabs or exciter? Would these work (for spreading the sound)?

The dry mono sound is clear and full, and goes 50Hz to 20kHz, with adjustable level on the separately-amped tweeter that fires through the 12" woofer. I am hearing a bit more low end in some patches that have it, particularly the ones with the HIWATT model. This will likely result in a tone control adjustment or maybe a LF trim in the cab block. As good as my Rockit8 monitors are, with bass clear and flat down to 35Hz or so, the 12" throws the bass a bit better than the two 8" woofers do.

I have used a controller pedal to fade in my stereo chorus conglomeration (a blend of 4-voice pitch detune, stereo tri-chorus, and mult-delay set up for extremely short modulate delays), and the sound went from a solid sound that was localized in the cabinet to sounding like it was literally everywhere in the room, and took what was normally very lush chorusing and turned it into 3D super lush. I imagine it would sound a bit wider with a dual cab setup, or with a single cab using a pair of hard-panned IRs. Sounds like a thing to try.

pretty sure this isn't for actual left right "stereo" but more to get sound moving around the room, causing good phasing that makes it feel roomier or spacier.

i think it's a unique effect just from reading. would love to try one. but yeah it's a completely different "stereo" approach.

It seems to me that it achieves what stereo tries and fails to achieve - a sense of space and size and unbelievably even coverage within that space. I will have to try out a panner and see if it does convincingly move around as expected.

It basically uses the old stereo mid-side mic technique backwards, where instead of a cardioid mic pointing at the source and a figure-8 mic perpendicular to the source, it uses speakers in that configuration, with L+R out the front and L-R and R-L coming out the sides (one amp, phase reversed speakers, essentially, to provide the same effect as a single diaphragm vibrating left-to-right). I walked around the store as far as my 20' cable would allow, and it was amazing how well it filled the space. Leslie rotor movement was very easily detectible close to the unit, and like a real Leslie in a space, the sound bounced off everything in the room as it spun around.

I recommend finding one and trying it. Worst case is you get a nice road trip out of the deal....

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All I need now is a smallish furniture dolly with 3" or 4" wheels to strap (or screw) to the bottom, for easier transport, and i'm golden. The handles are pretty well placed, and it's not too heavy, but moving gear is always much easier when on wheels....

I have ordered a 6-space shallow SKB roto-rack box, with a 2-space drawer, and moved the old SAE 50WPC stereo amp into the rack in the pic. Eventually the SAE rack will also get a shelf and a patch panel, and will include my DI box and Presonus mic pre, so I have an easy all-in-one IR capture setup.

 

[lqdsnddist]

I love the Space Station! I found an old V2 for like $300 and gave it a new Fender style grill, some drip edge treatment, corner bumpers and new logo........ DIY Vibratone cabinet

I use mine pretty much exclusively for sending a 100% wet rotary stereo signal, speed and level controlled with an expression pedal. I have it sitting on top of my CLR which I run dry. It’s a pseudo wet/dry/wet rig on the cheap lol

also sounds awesome giving the Space Station some big reverbs with the “dry” amp just getting a smaller sounding reverb. Actually makes it sound like youve got an amp with a reverb tank and are playing it in a huge room.

I have stereo CLR’s, but the Space Station is totally it’s own thing, not true stereo, but it actually sounds more immersive than stereo, even though it’s all coming from one source. All that 300 degree spread and phase effects as it bounces around the room is just something you need to hear in person to appreciate fully

 

[lqdsnddist]

Remember too when creating rotary patches that the vibratone cabinets where only 10” and the cross over network actually resulted in the lows and highs going to the guitar cabinet. Sending a rotary block a full range signal doesn’t sound quite as accurate as a result.

likewise, Gilmour’s Doppolas where working on the mids and didn’t have huge drivers, nor did the Yamaha’s.

A proper Leslie, meant for organ, had a big horn/rotor, and lots of low end, but I personally find the sound of a Leslie cab isn’t what I typically want, I want a Vibratone sound, or a Gilmour tone from mine.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

I like the old 147 sound, so I usually use that. I just did a test with a ping-pong delay, and, maybe it's my room setup with the Spacestation in a corner, but it seems to transfer the left-right ping-pong motion into a more behind/befront (is that a word?) of me sort of motion, with a sense of fullness throughout the room. Plex Delay fills the room nicely if mixed up wet enough.

 

[Rex]

I like the old 147 sound, so I usually use that. I just did a test with a ping-pong delay, and, maybe it's my room setup with the Spacestation in a corner, but it seems to transfer the left-right ping-pong motion into a more behind/befront (is that a word?) of me sort of motion, with a sense of fullness throughout the room. Plex Delay fills the room nicely if mixed up wet enough.

The Spacestation will play with your perception of directionality in a fun way, but it won’t create an accurate stereo image.

 

[chris]

It seems to me that it achieves what stereo tries and fails to achieve - a sense of space and size an

traditional stereo lets you hear things panned in a left to right space. this unit just makes "space" and not necessarily the intended left to right image.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

The Spacestation will play with your perception of directionality in a fun way, but it won’t create an accurate stereo image.

I need to re-do my ping-pong delay test. I had tucked the cover against the side of the unit, covering one if the side speakers. LOL!

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

traditional stereo lets you hear things panned in a left to right space. this unit just makes "space" and not necessarily the intended left to right image.

The essence of the difference between music reproduction and music production is the difference between slavish, mechanical, soulless reproduction of a recorded sound and the tolerance for (and indeed the seeking out of) what is new/different/unique in producing sound.

Differences in Art vs. Industry aside, the jury's still out on the ping-pong delay's left/right bounce, as I FUBARed the test, as mentioned above. The thing does wonders with stereo chorus and Leslie, and sounds good as a mono dry source, too.

 

[chris]

The essence of the difference between music reproduction and music production is the difference between slavish, mechanical, soulless reproduction of a recorded sound and the tolerance for (and indeed the seeking out of) what is new/different/unique in sound.

Differences in Art vs. Industry aside, the jury's still out on the ping-pong delay's left/right bounce, as I FUBARed the test, as mentioned above. The thing does wonders with stereo chorus and Leslie, and sounds good as a mono dry source, too.

sure. but stereo sound is typically left to right regardless.

so someone buying the Spacestation to hear things on the left vs right won't get that result.

 

[lqdsnddist]

It’s not a left and right signal type of processing, but more of a sum and difference. Material that is the same in the left and right channels gets summed and played through the front firing speaker. Material that has unique left and right characteristics goes to the side firing speaker. Stuff that is hard panned like a ping pong delay doesn’t have much effect. The more unique stereo separation, the more you get the effect, so things like chorus and rotary work great. I often use the enhancer block with mine as well, just to give it the best signal possible.

it has stereo inputs but it’s not separating the left and right, it’s the sum and difference of the overall content. Not really a stereo effect at all in the classic sense.

wont replace dual monitors for real left and right, but does give a very unique effect for certain modulation sounds.

like I said, I basically think of mine as a dedicated rotary cabinet, which it’s awesome for, but it’s not going to serve as a great stage monitor, PA, replace a stereo setup etc. it’s got one awesome trick only, but sure sounds awesome playing it at home. Fills the room like nothing else can.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Well, jury's still out on the left/right for ping-pong delays, even with the cover not blocking the side speaker, as it's still jammed in a corner next to my desk and cabinet. I get a softer sense of left-ness and right-ness with ping-pong delays, but it's mixed with a general sense of the left-ness and right-ness receding behind the amp with each repeat, as if following a V-shaped pair of lines behind the speaker away into the distance. The left-ness or right-ness of delay repeats seems enhanced a bit on more sustained bits than on staccato bits, probably due to the way the left-ness and right-ness is being pushed out into space, and probably also influenced by the shape of my office's corner and the furniture surrounding the speaker.

I will have to give it a fair test in a less crowded space, like my living room, before declaring the left-ness and right-ness of delay repeats a non-starter. It's a total win for chorusing and Leslie, which is good enough in my book, and ping-pong delays (which I, admittedly, don't use all the time) don't sound like they emanate from the same spot as the dry sound, so that's still decent, IMHO.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Bottom line, you'll never understand what's great about it if you don't go try one. Maybe it doesn't hit the mark for you, due to your more regimented sense of what "stereo" means, or maybe you'll play a stereo-chorused sound and be completely enraptured by the sound coming seemingly from everywhere at once, no matter where you are in the room, like I was. If ping-pong delay was super-important to me, I'd still use this as a "center" cab (and still pump my Leslie and chorusing through it), and pump the ping-pong delays to a pair of Gemini wedges or something similar, on either side of the center speaker, spread out a little to give them all some space.

Worst case, you take a road trip for nothing.

 

[chris]

due to your more regimented sense of what "stereo" means

Stereo and spatial just aren’t the same things that’s all. It’d be unfair to describe this as stereo to someone when it’s not the typical definition of that. That’s all I’m saying.

This unit takes the center data through one speaker and mixed the far left and right data through the other speaker. With left and right items mixed you won’t get left and right separation. You will get center and left/right separation, which is simply a different result. And that’s good and fine. It’s a cool concept. I’ve never disagreed with that.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Stereo and spatial just aren’t the same things that’s all. It’d be unfair to describe this as stereo to someone when it’s not the typical definition of that. That’s all I’m saying.

Point taken. You're probably right on the unfairness of it, though it's hard to say in which direction it's unfair.

This unit takes the center data through one speaker and mixed the far left and right data through the other speaker. With left and right items mixed you won’t get left and right separation. You will get center and left/right separation, which is simply a different result. And that’s good and fine. It’s a cool concept. I’ve never disagreed with that.

Seriously, if you encounter one of these in your travels, even if you don't do a road trip to find one, you owe it to yourself to give it a whirl with a nice stereo chorus or something like that. It's a really cool effect.

FWIW, stereo was originally implemented to try to give a spatial effect as an improvement over mono, though--which it does halfway-decently if you are in just the right spot. People not in just the right spot generally lose a lot of the spatial-ness of it, and in the case of a ping-pong delay, also half of the delay information. The sweet spot is fairly small, as the difference in arrival times from the left and right speakers start very quickly to get into the range of the Haas Panning effect, which causes the stereo to collapse, as your brain lies to you and doesn't recognize the sound as coming equally from the slightly delayed side. Lean to the left out of the sweet spot, and the sounds that sounded centered all sound more to the left. Lean to the right, same deal in the opposite direction. It's especially obvious in near-field monitoring, when your head is one point of an isosceles triangle. Even the smallest lean in either direction moves the sense of center pretty dramatically if something is stereo-imaged.

I distinctly remember the first time I heard something where phase was played with on a record through decent speakers. It was one of the '65 or '66 Beatles tunes, and the tambourine sounded like it was behind me, and so realistically so that I had to turn around to see who was back there waggling the bloody thing. LOL! Suddenly I was in the music instead of just listening to a speaker or two.

Every chorus or Leslie sound played through this thing seems to envelop you. You stop listening to an amp/speaker and start floating around in it. Even the ping-pong delays crammed into my corner sound like they have some bit of a 3D quality to them, even if they aren't strictly left-y and right-y in a pure sense of the words. They have a bit of front-to-back space, too. It gives you the 3D spatial effect on the chorus and Leslie throughout a space, as well as all of the ping-pong delays throughout the space. Looks like I need to test this thing out in the living room to get a better sense of what it actually does with ping-pong delays, but even crammed in my office corner, it gives a sense of some 3D space with the delays, as though they are not emanating from the dry center speaker. This is the "magic" that it weaves for me.

 

[Rex]

That’s the funky think about devices like the Spacestaton. They lend a spatial effect to the sound, but good luck trying to localize the sound.

 

[reclavea]

I’d surely love to experience one! But may take awhile in the middle of the Pacific.

Brings back shades of the Roland Jazz Chorus sweetness?