Natural Harmonics 2nd fret issue

Steven Fernandez

Steven Fernandez

Inspired
I have a Jackson Stealth guitar that I've had for a long time (Stock pickups)

For some reason the Natural Harmonics on the 2nd Fret are really loud on this guitar.

I've got an ibanez with SD SH-4 pickups and it's really hard to get the same natural harmonics on the second fret.

Is this problem to do with the pickups or could it be for some other reason?

Any help would be appreciated.
 
New strings, same brand/gauge/tuning on both guitars? Is the difference obvious listening to each guitar unamplified? Did you try every pickup switch position on each guitar? Pickup position/selection affects relative harmonic levels.

Can you post a DI recording of each guitar playing natural harmonics on every string? Start with some lower node like 5th fret and play up to the 2nd fret harmonic at least.
 
Good points..Both guitarist sound the same unamplified. I know it's not a technique issue because I do the same on both guitars. I was just wondering if the pickups are playing a role here and if I can use any effects to bring the harmonic out on my ibanez.
 
Is the pickup placement the same on both? I could imagine that having an effect on how much the resonance of certain harmonic nodes gets picked up.
 
Who does harmonics at the 2nd fret? I don't have a single guitar that displays any natural harmonics at the 2nd fret. 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th and maybe 4th with a little work. What am I missing?
 
FractalAudio said:
Who does harmonics at the 2nd fret? I don't have a single guitar that displays any natural harmonics at the 2nd fret. 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th and maybe 4th with a little work. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure. I can't remember playing any guitars that couldn't produce audible harmonics unplugged up to the 1st fret or beyond. Try using the pinky since a wider contact area will dampen the string faster. Getting the exact location is also more important the higher you go.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/du6mb41slj0r7c7/d-harmonics.mp3?dl=0
 
FractalAudio said:
Who does harmonics at the 2nd fret? I don't have a single guitar that displays any natural harmonics at the 2nd fret. 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th and maybe 4th with a little work. What am I missing?
Click to expand...
I think at like 2.3 or something there about was a node... I assumed that is what the OP was referring to.
 
Code: 
harmonic  fret
 1  E     0
11  A#    1.65
10  G#    1.82
 9  F#    2.03
 8  E     2.31
 7  D     2.66
 6  B     3.15
11  A#    3.47
 5  G#    3.86
 9  F#    4.35
 4  E     4.98
11  A#    5.51
 7  D     5.82
10  G#    6.17
 3  B     7.01
11  A#    7.82
 8  E     8.13
 5  G#    8.84
 7  D     9.68
 9  F#   10.17
11  A#   10.49
 2  E    12.00
11  A#   13.65
 9  F#   14.03
 7  D    14.66
 5  G#   15.86
 8  E    16.98
11  A#   17.51
 3  B    19.01
10  G#   20.84
 7  D    21.68
11  A#   22.49
 4  E    24.00
 9  F#   26.03
 5  G#   27.86
11  A#   29.51
 6  B    31.01
 7  D    33.68
 8  E    36.00
 9  F#   38.03
10  G#   39.86
11  A#   41.51
 
You might look to intonation as the culprit. If the intonation isn't set just so, the result can be loss of some of those harder to invoke bright, clear as a bell, shiny as a virgin's promise harmonics we all covet.
 
FractalAudio said:
Who does harmonics at the 2nd fret? I don't have a single guitar that displays any natural harmonics at the 2nd fret. 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th and maybe 4th with a little work. What am I missing?
Click to expand...
Seem to recall EVH used 2.5 quite a bit in his solo section. 2 is pushing it I think unless you have fingertips made of canvas or something.
 
Stev Vai used the harmonic around the 2nd fret with the whammy bar for his “horse” sound in Bad Horsie. As said, it’s not exactly at the 2nd fret.
 
Bakerman said:
Code: 
harmonic  fret
 1  E     0
11  A#    1.65
10  G#    1.82
 9  F#    2.03
 8  E     2.31
 7  D     2.66
 6  B     3.15
11  A#    3.47
 5  G#    3.86
 9  F#    4.35
 4  E     4.98
11  A#    5.51
 7  D     5.82
10  G#    6.17
 3  B     7.01
11  A#    7.82
 8  E     8.13
 5  G#    8.84
 7  D     9.68
 9  F#   10.17
11  A#   10.49
 2  E    12.00
11  A#   13.65
 9  F#   14.03
 7  D    14.66
 5  G#   15.86
 8  E    16.98
11  A#   17.51
 3  B    19.01
10  G#   20.84
 7  D    21.68
11  A#   22.49
 4  E    24.00
 9  F#   26.03
 5  G#   27.86
11  A#   29.51
 6  B    31.01
 7  D    33.68
 8  E    36.00
 9  F#   38.03
10  G#   39.86
11  A#   41.51
Click to expand...

OUT of topic : Is this why scalloped neck guitars seem to have more harmonic content/response ?
 
USMC_Trev said:
You might look to intonation as the culprit.
Click to expand...

This doesn't make sense. Bad intonation affects pitch of fretted notes. It doesn't prevent a string from ringing at fractional lengths.

yek said:
Stev Vai used the harmonic around the 2nd fret with the whammy bar for his “horse” sound in Bad Horsie. As said, it’s not exactly at the 2nd fret.
Click to expand...

Natural ones (3:33, 5:33) are the ~3.2 node on 2nd string, plus Whammy pedal & bar rise/shake. Earlier in "verses" are a couple pinch harmonics (3rd string 5th fret) with similar bar technique, no Whammy pedal.

lauke-lux said:
OUT of topic : Is this why scalloped neck guitars seem to have more harmonic content/response ?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what your question is. Removing fretboard material might have some effect on tone/harmonics/sustain/etc. That list of numbers probably wouldn't help explain why that happens.
 
Do both guitars have the same neck scale length? If yes, measure from the nut to the exact location you get the loud harmonic on the Jackson and then try that exact location on the Ibanez.

Have you checked the intonation on the 2nd fret? I've had a few guitars where the first few frets weren't properly placed, so they're not a perfect references point for harmonics.

If the neck scale lengths are different, then the harmonics will be at slightly different locations. I had this issue when trying to do the Dimebag whammy bar divebomb squeals going from my Dean ML guitar with a 24.75in scale neck to an Ibanez with a 25.5in scale neck. I had the same issue playing the harmonics in the Pantera songs Heresy and Mouth For War.

Also the pickup locations can affect harmonics and the location where you're placing your pick when picking the string.

No matter how much I practice on a 25.5in scale neck, I still get the best harmonics out of my 24.75in necks. I think it may be because I started off playing on 24.75in necks, so it's just muscle memory. I don't even attempt harmonic show off tricks on baritone necks.
 
Natural ones (3:33, 5:33) are the ~3.2 node on 2nd string, plus Whammy pedal & bar rise/shake. Earlier in "verses" are a couple pinch harmonics (3rd string 5th fret) with similar bar technique, no Whammy pedal.
Click to expand...

Aha, wrote it down from memory. I remembered wrong. :)
 
Bakerman said:
This doesn't make sense. Bad intonation affects pitch of fretted notes. It doesn't prevent a string from ringing at fractional lengths.
Click to expand...

If the intonation is off, you will find that the 12th fret harmonic is different is different than that note fretted, when they should be the same. Even a slight variation at the midpoint can have a multiplicative effect as the harmonics get higher and the internode distances get shorter and shorter. The result being that the intended harmonic is nowhere near the intended point, if it exists at all because of the destructive interference caused by the non-cohesive wave you're trying to produce. If it's off enough, the actual harmonic point could be half a fret or more away from where you thought it should be and it won't be in tune.

The harmonic in question occurs very close to the nut and it's complement node is very close to the saddle. The amount of movement required for the string vertically may indeed not be possible due to the shape of the saddle piece on the guitar in question impeding on the strings' free movement, thus killing the harmonic. That would be if the saddle is too far forward or too far back depending on the design of the saddle

A super good intonation setup may solve the problem by creating just enough space for that harmonic, or the design of the bridge won't allow for it.
 
USMC_Trev said:
If the intonation is off, you will find that the 12th fret harmonic is different is different than that note fretted, when they should be the same.
Click to expand...

The fretted note will be out of tune vs. the open string but this has no effect on how well harmonics can sound/sustain.

You could move the bridge 1" closer to the neck and still get clear harmonics. They just won't be found over the frets you'd expect. However well/badly Cliff's guitar is intonated, that second fret harmonic is somewhere around the second fret, with two others a few mm in either direction.
 
Bakerman said:
The fretted note will be out of tune vs. the open string but this has no effect on how well harmonics can sound/sustain.

You could move the bridge 1" closer to the neck and still get clear harmonics. They just won't be found over the frets you'd expect. However well/badly Cliff's guitar is intonated, that second fret harmonic is somewhere around the second fret, with two others a few mm in either direction.
Click to expand...

You know you argued and agreed with me at the same time right?
 
Do you think Cliff's saddles are 1" from the location for perfect intonation?

The example was meant to explain that the harmonic nodes will still be there somewhere, even if the intonation is way off. Perfect (or even good) intonation isn't required to locate and play clear natural harmonics.
 
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