I want as little latency as possible, should I get a analog mixer?

F

Fedora

New Member
I got my axefx plugged into my digi002r. It`s decent in low latency mode. But still, it`s not zero latency, and I want as little latency as possible. When I`m gaming I prefer computer monitors with no more than 1ms latency. Same with my guitar playing. So I thought the easiest way to do this, while keeping my 002 is to get a analog mixer, connect the speakers to the mixer, and run all my audio (Axe and sound from computer) through it. If I want to record I can run the guitar signal from the mixer and into the soundcard.

Something I haven`t thought of? is this a good idea, anyone else doing it this way?
 
Are there any differences in sound/signal path quality when it comes to analoge mixers, or could I just get a cheap Alto mixer for my purpose?
 
I guess if you're just talking about listening to the Axe-Fx combined with sound from the computer, then mixing them together as you suggest would provide zero latency. However, recording to the computer will always include some latency.
 
As I recall, the Digi002 had noticeable latency in monitoring. It seemed really laggy when I was tracking, and I wound up using another path for recording. The AxeFX USB output is ideal for recording, but you're at the mercy of the speed of the return signal bus when monitoring from a DAW. In a nicely-equipped studio, I always go analog into the board, via the XLR outs from the AxeFX.
 
About that 1 ms delay you're talking about. Sound travels at roughly 1 foot per second. I'd venture to guess you never listen to a real guitar cab yelling at you one foot away. So probably everything in the range of 10 ms is rather realistic and shouldn't create problems. Than again, Axe FX has latency of it's own. I don't know what it is exactly, but lets say it's somewhere under 3 ms. If that Digi of yours is really great, it may have about the same latency. But even if it's twice that, it shouldn't be a problem.
 
vangrieg said:
About that 1 ms delay you're talking about. Sound travels at roughly 1 foot per second. I'd venture to guess you never listen to a real guitar cab yelling at you one foot away. So probably everything in the range of 10 ms is rather realistic and shouldn't create problems. Than again, Axe FX has latency of it's own. I don't know what it is exactly, but lets say it's somewhere under 3 ms. If that Digi of yours is really great, it may have about the same latency. But even if it's twice that, it shouldn't be a problem.
Click to expand...

I got my guitar cab about 1.5 meters away from me :) It sounds weird that sounds travel 1 foot per second, if that is true it would take about 5 seconds for the sound to reach me at 1.5 meter.

Anyways, the axe fx standard. Is it possible to copy the output signal to two outputs somehow? essentially running one output to sepakers and the other to recording gear?
 
It's foot per millisecond of course, sorry. Those 1.5 meters give you some 5 millisecond delay.

Yes, it is possible to copy Output 1 to 2. I/O - Audio - Output 2 Echo - Output 1.
 
vangrieg said:
It's foot per millisecond of course, sorry. Those 1.5 meters give you some 5 millisecond delay.

Yes, it is possible to copy Output 1 to 2. I/O - Audio - Output 2 Echo - Output 1.
Click to expand...

Great. Then I can have one signal for listening and another for recording. My latency problems might only be a placebo, but imagined or not I still feel the latency.
 
Little mixers work well if you want your Axe and your PC both hooked up to the same monitors. I like to play backing tracks on my PC and jam over them on the Axe, but I like having the ability to adjust levels quick and easy. I got a cheap mixer (which sounds good to my ears) and just plugged both units into it and then into my monitor speakers. I can now play that Axe essentially straight into the monitors or hear my computer through the monitors and adjust the levels as needed.

Now that I got a CLR though I'm not really using the mixer though, as the CLR has two inputs, with level controls, so I run the Axe direct into one and then an output from my computer into the other and adjust as needed. Axe is just hooked to the PC via USB now so for recording I use audio over USB

Little 4 or 5 input mixer works great though and cost next to nothing
 
There is always going to be some issue with latency, due to the fact that your protools return is always at the mercy of the playback buffer delay. If you are going to go the route of analog mixer, just notate your playback buffer size and compensate for that delay by adjusting the file in protools by however many sample/ms. Otherwise, when you play things back it may sound like you are actually ahead of the beat by a few samples/ms. It will work perfectly for tracking, but just keep that in mind.
 
toolfanem said:
There is always going to be some issue with latency, due to the fact that your protools return is always at the mercy of the playback buffer delay. If you are going to go the route of analog mixer, just notate your playback buffer size and compensate for that delay by adjusting the file in protools by however many sample/ms. Otherwise, when you play things back it may sound like you are actually ahead of the beat by a few samples/ms. It will work perfectly for tracking, but just keep that in mind.
Click to expand...

Its simply not possible to detect timing differences of a few samples or a few milliseconds. Extensive research within the field of psychoacoustics has shown the limits of temporal auditory resolution in humans to be around 10-20 milliseconds.

You'll certainly come across people on places like gear forums who will claim they can tell a difference between say 3 and 5 milliseconds but its physiologically not possible
 
lqdsnddist said:
Extensive research within the field of psychoacoustics has shown the limits of temporal auditory resolution in humans to be around 10-20 milliseconds.
Click to expand...

True, but there are a couple caveats here.

First of all, human perception of sound is highly steered, which means that people easily hear things that don't exist or miss things that do exist. So if someone is determined to hear latency he will hear it no matter what. Obviously, he won't be able to hear it in a blind test, but this particular test isn't blind.

People will easily "hear" 10 ms latency if they know they're listening to a digital device but won't hear it from a 3 meter distance from a cab. Granted, with all the early and late reflections it's difficult to hear anything distinctly in the latter scenario, but you get what I'm saying, I think.

Secondly, since the OP's Axe is connected to the interface's analog inputs, we're talking about double conversion, so the total roundtrip latency may easily be around 10 ms or even more. I don't know anything about that particular card, but that's a possibility. If that is the case, total latency may indeed be within limits where human brain can discern it.
 
You can test it for yourself. Put a delay block set to digital delay at 1 ms, no feedback, and 100% wet at the end of a preset. Have someone else randomly bypass or enable the block every few seconds while you play and see if you can tell when its on and when it is off without looking. Keep raising the delay time until you can repeatedly pick correctly.
 
"steer-able" perception allowing people to easily hear things that don't exist ? If your determined to hear latency you will even if you can't hear it in a blind test ?

Sigh...... why did I bother getting a doctorate when everyone on the internet is already an "expert"
 
lqdsnddist said:
Its simply not possible to detect timing differences of a few samples or a few milliseconds. Extensive research within the field of psychoacoustics has shown the limits of temporal auditory resolution in humans to be around 10-20 milliseconds.

You'll certainly come across people on places like gear forums who will claim they can tell a difference between say 3 and 5 milliseconds but its physiologically not possible
Click to expand...
This appears to show the ability to be significantly lower than 10-20 milliseconds?

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/globa...ing/audio_quality/chapter4/02_audio_universe/
 
Last edited:
6 microseconds is .006 milliseconds. i can't believe that anyone can confidently discern that minuscule amount of time consistently. sure it's in a white paper, but i just can't believe it.

i for sure can't even discern 1 millisecond, which is .001 second.

mr_fender said:
You can test it for yourself. Put a delay block set to digital delay at 1 ms, no feedback, and 100% wet at the end of a preset. Have someone else randomly bypass or enable the block every few seconds while you play and see if you can tell when its on and when it is off without looking. Keep raising the delay time until you can repeatedly pick correctly.
Click to expand...
this is a great way to test yourself for yourself. i'd definitely try it.

but for those who want to test, realize that in a test situation when you are actively listening for a change, you're bound to hear it, vs just playing normally, focused on other things.

i mean, if you hear it, then you hear it. if 1ms of latency affects your playing, that must be rough.
 
Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
i mean, if you hear it, then you hear it. if 1ms of latency affects your playing, that must be rough.
Click to expand...

If somebody claims that a 1 ms delay adversely affects his playing then he would have trouble playing further than a foot away from the speaker. Which I believe nobody does, and humanity has been fine. Until digital equipment appeared and latency actually became part of the specs, it was all around us, unmeasured, and nobody noticed.

The OP actually confirmed that he doesn't hear 5 ms latency while playing through a cab.
 
3 milliseconds was about how long I watched that video above before I started to feel myself steered out of sync with my life path.

Jeez that would be a right fidgety hour long lecture
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom