Lag on the AX8 when switching presets.

J

John Atanasoff

Inspired
This thread is about the lag on the AX8 when switching presets.

What has been your experience? How can it be minimized? I am looking to switch from lets say a crunch from one amp to a lead from another, with different effects letting the notes ring. Is it noticeable in a live scenario? What is the solution to achieve what i need? Scenes?

As Chris@AxeFxTutorials said in the bellow thread:
To be technical, there is no "lag" but instead an audio gap so there is no popping sound due to parameters changing suddenly. this is not a limitation of the Axe-Fx or AX8, but a limitation of where technology is today.

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threa...cene-switching-a-few-questions-please.105916/





FX2 has the same issue then? I am asking cos today i heard this guy:

and i thought the dual amping sounded a killer even though there is a slight lag in two of the presets. I am still deciding wether fx2 or ax8.
 
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If your connected to one of the edit programs (AX8 edit, Axe edit or Fx8) there is a interruption whenever you do any thing. Pause the program if you want to change things on the unit itself or not have that interruption.
 
There will be a lag if the amp model is switching whether you are using amp X/Y or switching presets. If seamless switching is an absolute necessity and you still want high-quality modelling, the only option I know of out there is the Atomic Amplifire. I have one and preset switching is truly seamless with no drop out. Kemper, Helix, Axe FX, AX8, all have audio drop-out when the amp model is switching to a greater or lesser degree (and so do many actual amps when switching channels).

What Chris mentions as an alternative is the old standby of using a drive pedal. The AX8 has lots of great sounding ones so the sound you're looking for might be achievable that way.
-
Austin
 
Larry Mitchell said:
If your connected to one of the edit programs (AX8 edit, Axe edit or Fx8) there is a interruption whenever you do any thing. Pause the program if you want to change things on the unit itself or not have that interruption.
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Yeah. Interruption when on (AX8 edit) is fine with me. I just really don't want it live.
If it's not the case then i'm good! :)
 
atquinn said:
There will be a lag if the amp model is switching whether you are using amp X/Y or switching presets. If seamless switching is an absolute necessity and you still want high-quality modelling, the only option I know of out there is the Atomic Amplifire. I have one and preset switching is truly seamless with no drop out. Kemper, Helix, Axe FX, AX8, all have audio drop-out when the amp model is switching to a greater or lesser degree (and so do many actual amps when switching channels).

What Chris mentions as an alternative is the old standby of using a drive pedal. The AX8 has lots of great sounding ones so the sound you're looking for might be achievable that way.
-
Austin
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Even live yeah? If the solution is to use drive pedals on AX8 itself for "seamless transition with no drop out"; if i get great sounds, i don't mind!

I don't know much about the "Atomic Amplifire" plus i really like the fact Fractal clones great amps.
I don't really need so many bells and whistles, but the basic and most important things to work.

Being for me a great amp tone, quality effects and no lag live!
 
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I did notice this while using presets. The "lag" or audio change is definitely apparent when compared to MFC and AXE II, and I am not plugged into the computer via USB. It's not bad enough to really be a concern live with 2 guitar players.
 
iaresee said:
Yea, "let notes ring" really means you want to look at scenes. Though if you're x/y'ing cab and/or amp blocks there'll also be a slight drop out when changing their state.
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I'l consider what @atquinn said as well. I do really need an unnoticeable transition while "the notes ring" without being noticed by the listeners.
 
you may want to look at using a Drive pedal for some tones if you really need no delay when switching. the Ruckus drive type is pretty high gain and i've used it for those moments i need absolute seamless switching. you can see it in that video somewhere :)

other than that, the Axe-Fx II allows 2 amp blocks and you can Bypass/Engage them so there is also no delay between sounds.

i definitely understand why so many people want seamless switching. but most gear does NOT have seamless switching. even real amps. many pros and big shows use multiple heads dedicated to certain tones and switch the Audio signal, not channels on the amps. my mesa roadster head even popped and had gaps when switching between channels. i've even heard live recordings of Dream Theater where JP had delay and glitching when changing through his old rigs (no axe involved).

sure, some gear has seamless switching. but much does not. if you are the sole guitarist in a trio for example, you may need to switch seamlessly. use 2 amp blocks on the Axe-Fx, or use a Drive pedal on the AX8 and/or Axe-Fx. but changing XY on an Amp block, or changing presets does have an audio delay. it is what it is, again, similar to other gear.

i've gotten into a habit of changing presets about an 1/8th note early or similar. but even when i forget, the gap is really short and usually doesn't cause any issues.

i personally think it's a bit much to ask processors to execute 100s of operations instantly on the downbeat without any glitching or delay. it's just how computers work currently. as the tech gets better, perhaps this can be improved upon. FAS has definitely worked on improving the delay time over the years and it's gotten better and better.

some people view this as "it's digital, it should do whatever we need it to since it's 1s and 0s." but this is a hardware limitation not unique to FAS products. again Drive pedals or 2 Amp blocks (on Axe) can help out here. or hit the switch just a bit early. we have so much available to us already, i'm sure we can adjust things a bit.
 
dkenin said:
I did notice this while using presets. The "lag" or audio change is definitely apparent when compared to MFC and AXE II, and I am not plugged into the computer via USB. It's not bad enough to really be a concern live with 2 guitar players.
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This is what i'm really trying to figure out. Cos what's the point in saving money with an AX8 when this is so important. If AXE FX II has this solved i'l buy it.
 
Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
you may want to look at using a Drive pedal for some tones if you really need no delay when switching. the Ruckus drive type is pretty high gain and i've used it for those moments i need absolute seamless switching. you can see it in that video somewhere :)

other than that, the Axe-Fx II allows 2 amp blocks and you can Bypass/Engage them so there is also no delay between sounds.

i definitely understand why so many people want seamless switching. but most gear does NOT have seamless switching. even real amps. many pros and big shows use multiple heads dedicated to certain tones and switch the Audio signal, not channels on the amps. my mesa roadster head even popped and had gaps when switching between channels. i've even heard live recordings of Dream Theater where JP had delay and glitching when changing through his old rigs (no axe involved).

sure, some gear has seamless switching. but much does not. if you are the sole guitarist in a trio for example, you may need to switch seamlessly. use 2 amp blocks on the Axe-Fx, or use a Drive pedal on the AX8 and/or Axe-Fx. but changing XY on an Amp block, or changing presets does have an audio delay. it is what it is, again, similar to other gear.

i've gotten into a habit of changing presets about an 1/8th note early or similar. but even when i forget, the gap is really short and usually doesn't cause any issues.

i personally think it's a bit much to ask processors to execute 100s of operations instantly on the downbeat without any glitching or delay. it's just how computers work currently. as the tech gets better, perhaps this can be improved upon. FAS has definitely worked on improving the delay time over the years and it's gotten better and better.

some people view this as "it's digital, it should do whatever we need it to since it's 1s and 0s." but this is a hardware limitation not unique to FAS products. again Drive pedals or 2 Amp blocks (on Axe) can help out here. or hit the switch just a bit early. we have so much available to us already, i'm sure we can adjust things a bit.
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Cheers Chris! You just get to the point. You provide solutions and facts, you know what i mean.

To keep it short:

- My concern here is when "notes are ringing" you want an extra kick or a different sound, you switch preset and you don't want the gap to be noticeable.

- If AX8 drive pedals please my ear for "this particular scenario". Then we have a solution!

- Otherwise Axe-Fx II. "2 amp blocks". Done!

Will read about the 2 blocks thing :D. I don't want any other piece of gear! Why should i? Fractal does what it does very well. Atomic Amplifire, cannot be compared.


I was thinking today about several tube heads scenario. If i was a pro and had the possibility to use multiple heads dedicated to certain tones i would switch the Audio signal as well.


If lag is not a limitation of 0's and 1's but processor power, it should be a matter of time before Fractal and other companies nail this issue.
For now AXE FX II and AX8 do what they do, very well.
 
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atquinn said:
you don't have to concern yourself with cup usage at all on it. Every preset contains every block and each block is either active or bypassed.
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helix and axe could do this as well if it limited the blocks available to match the CPU usage exactly.

i'm sure you know this and probably exactly what you meant, but just saying it to be complete. of course, helix and axe allow you to choose a variety of blocks that you want until you hit CPU limits vs. "here are your only options." yeah?
 
atquinn said:
Right; because in a Helix preset with 2 amps, both amps are loaded at all times. They don't have x/y states so it's like switching between 2 amp blocks on the Axe FX2. No gap. But if you switch presets it has to load a new amp block so there's a gap. I'll have to do a recording of my Amplifire and AX8 to show the difference between their preset switching. I believe the Amplifire uses the same processors as the Helix and AX8, but the design philosophy appears to be very different. At this point the Amplifire can't do as much as the Hleix or AX8 but you don't have to concern yourself with cup usage at all on it. Every preset contains every block and each block is either active or bypassed.
-
Austin
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Honestly i don't care what brand i buy as long as it does what i need. Having as little lag as possible is important for me.
But fractal has the best sounding amp models in the market and that's a fact. Still, out of curiosity i am listening to the Atomic Amplifire.

PS: Please do the video on both units displaying the lag. I highly appreciate it.
 
John Atanasoff said:
Cheers Chris! You just get to the point. You provide solutions and facts, you know what i mean.
Click to expand...

thanks for saying that. that's my goal usually, but sometimes people's responses to what i say make me feel like i'm failing completely!

- My concern here is when "notes are ringing" you want an extra kick or a different sound, you switch preset and you don't want the gap to be noticeable.
Click to expand...
definitely understand this. again, you'd basically want to use things that don't inherently have a gap. so don't use Amp XY or change Presets. but any block that simply is turning On/Off should have no lag.

check out this other video at 51:50 (haha). it shows me changing between Scene 1 and Scene 2, basically turning on and off the Drive pedal Ruckus type. no lag in the sound:

 
Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
thanks for saying that. that's my goal usually, but sometimes people's responses to what i say make me feel like i'm failing completely!


definitely understand this. again, you'd basically want to use things that don't inherently have a gap. so don't use Amp XY or change Presets. but any block that simply is turning On/Off should have no lag.

check out this other video at 51:50 (haha). it shows me changing between Scene 1 and Scene 2, basically turning on and off the Drive pedal Ruckus type. no lag in the sound:

Click to expand...


Yep, you are changing from drive to clean with the strings vibrating and i hear no noticeable lag! Which is what i need for some scenarios.
In this particular scenario you're using two different amps but with scenes?
Practically speaking as configuration and the intricacies of the unit, i have no idea what you did. That's why things will make more sense when i have the unit.
 
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