1500 bucks, you say, Line6?

The price of the XL+ isn't high at all, based on its contents.
For less than 3000 you get an encyclopedia of > 50 years of musical gear.

Oh I totally understand that concept & principal.

But still, it's just a computer... it could be sold for much less and still maintain a decent profit for the company.
 
The price is what it is. Initially, the TigerSHARC chips were about $600 a piece at quantity. Nowadays, they're about $250 a piece. I hear comments by the FAS team about the high quality ADC/DAC chips that cost 10x as much as the competitors, and think awesome! But then I remember that the competitors use 10 cent to $1 parts.

So, component prices keep going down, even though new parts are being introduced (Optical encoder for one) but the Axe line remains the same price or has climbed over the years. I gotta believe the cost of the DSP chips being lowered more than offset the additional $20-$50 worth of parts added over the years.

Just pointing this out as a devil's advocate. In reality, I have no problem paying the premium, as the continued support by the FAS team is invaluable.
 
But to that I say, the modeling of the Fractal as almost evolved to a point now where further firmware updates are not that nessacery, meaning they are providing diminishing returns, more & more so as time goes on and the unit reaches perfection. So when you are at that point there's nothing that really needs updating anyway. At least from my point of view, because all I care about is can you get a 1965 Super Reverb Tone? And can you get a Van Halen Plexi tone? As long as those two amps are nailed, EVERYTHING else the unit does is nothing more but icing on the cake. I don't think the Fender & Marshall tones in the Fractal are going to get much more realistic than they already are at present moment. Therefore, I don't really care if Line 6 or whoever made a clone product of the Fractal but put their name on it and sold it for a lot less, but offered no further firmware updates.

I think if Cliff struck a deal with a company that has far deeper pockets than he has, to where he sold the unit to them, it'd be a win/win for everyone. Cliff then would have more money than he will probably ever make on his own, although I'm sure Cliff is literally a Millionaire by now, net worth. Cliff would make huge money, a huge lump sum and a small percentage off of future units sold, then he'd have the rest of his life free to do nothing but enjoy doing other things non fractal related. And we would see the unit mass produced and sold in every guitar center, sweetwater, musicians friend, every music store. It would become as common as a Line 6 Pod or a fender or marshall amp.

I think Cliff would be smart to sell his company to a large corporation for maximum profit in the very near future.

Otherwise, it's just a matter of time before Line 6 or someone has basically reversed engineered the Fractal and cloned it 99% and can mass produce it for $1,000 or less. Those computer parts in it will only lower in price as time goes on, meaning it should be cheaper to produce them in another year or two.

If he doesn't sell out to someone, then the masses will get 99% of what he has to offer in a competing unit for probably half the price that he sells them for. Then where will he be? Only selling to a small minority of people that care about the prestige of the Fractal name?

All I'm really saying is, modeling technology has pretty much reached a ceiling, it is pretty much nailing exactly what it's supposed to be modeling, can't do any better than that. And all this time Fractal has really had a monopoly on the market because Cliff was the first to achieve this realism in modeling, so that's why we've had to pay such ridiculous prices. (And yes, I am about to send Cliff $2,500 for the XL Plus at the end of July as long as nothing changes in my life between now and then) SOON... Cliff will be forced to lower the price on his Flagships, or the majority of consumers will get a different brand name for way less money, even if the Fractal remains 1% better in quality etc.

It's not anything scared, that black box. It's nothing more than a computer. A bunch of wires, and circuits etc on a PCB board. The unit probably only costs $500 to manufacture with cheap labor and wholesale prices bought in bulk quantities. So a killing of profit is being made. Of course Cliff had to pour a huge investment initially into this whole thing and he had to invent it and dream up all the ideas and research etc, so I see where he's coming from.

But it would be so beautiful for a larger company to buy him out, then they could mass produce & mass market it, and sell it for rock bottom prices but still make a good profit, because they never had to deal with the initial time & investment of inventing it.

That would be so beautiful.

Then, we could all get Fractal technology at the lowest price humanly possible.


What a bunch of nonsense. Not that some of your points aren't vaguely connected to reality, but you are missing so much of what makes Fractal what it is. Fractal is and continues to be a moving target. Cliff's technology and efforts produced excellent results back in the days of the Axe-FX Standard and Ultra. Just because the technology is getting exceptionally and almost ridiculously good now doesn't mean that he is running out of ideas or ways to improve and innovate.

Sure maybe Cliff wants to cash in and retire. I doubt it though. He has been wildly successful at building products and a business that expands our ideas of what is possible. This takes very strong drive and motivation. I doubt that he is motivated purely by cash. I would respectfully opine that efforts like his must be partly motivated in the desire to build something special and see how far you can go with it. This thing is his baby. He must get so much satisfaction and pride from the way he continues to drive progress in the field and build his empire. I don't see him stepping down as emperor to let some other company step in and ruin a great product line and business.

All this is just my silly opinions, but I wanted to share a very different perspective than Mr. Market-Efficiency-Corporate-Buyout shared above. (Sorry for the teasing). Peace!
 
Money doesn't buy love and therefore doesn't buy happiness either. But who needs to be happy if they are rich anyway? As much as I want to believe this person is trolling, somehow it seems not? Apparently quite a good troll then! :)
 
The price is what it is. Initially, the TigerSHARC chips were about $600 a piece at quantity. Nowadays, they're about $250 a piece. I hear comments by the FAS team about the high quality ADC/DAC chips that cost 10x as much as the competitors, and think awesome! But then I remember that the competitors use 10 cent to $1 parts.

So, component prices keep going down, even though new parts are being introduced (Optical encoder for one) but the Axe line remains the same price or has climbed over the years. I gotta believe the cost of the DSP chips being lowered more than offset the additional $20-$50 worth of parts added over the years.

Just pointing this out as a devil's advocate. In reality, I have no problem paying the premium, as the continued support by the FAS team is invaluable.

I agree.

I have no problem paying for Fractal next month either, as it's the only choice now, but I am excited that things appear to be changing with the new Helix from Line 6, seems everyone is going to raise the bar, and prices will lower as Line 6 is competitive pricewise.
 
Money doesn't buy love and therefore doesn't buy happiness either. But who needs to be happy if they are rich anyway? As much as I want to believe this person is trolling, somehow it seems not? Apparently quite a good troll then! :)

I'm not trolling... although I am always accused of that... just because I'm extremely opinioated & outspoken and have beliefs that are not popular does not make me a troll.

Money buys love. Love is but a illusion.

If I had a million dollars I'd have a million beautiful women knocking on my door & I wouldn't have time to waste today typing a novel on here haha

Women judge mens attractiveness by the money they have, being a good provider.
 
Because I love Music. But at the end of the day I value Money even more so than human lives. If I had the opportunity to save a dollar or a persons life, I'd save a dollar... unless the person assured me I'd be rewarded with financial gains.

Money buys everything. It's a Tool. Money buys time & freedom, and money gives power as well as the options to have the best of everything.

To further elaborate... I'm probably the most narcacistic & self absorbed person on the planet, and proud of it, as those are good qualities in my mind. And to further illustrate how tight I am with money, I don't even tip waitstaff because it goes against my principals of giving money away. I don't believe in charity. And I like to get things for the best price.

Same thing with Gibson, I'd prefer a Orville by Gibson MIJ fujigen any day, same or better quality as real les pauls but lower price, although I'm a BC Rich neck thru guy now.

trolling? or are you really that stupid? because if you think you're being funny, you're not.
 
What a bunch of nonsense. Not that some of your points aren't vaguely connected to reality, but you are missing so much of what makes Fractal what it is. Fractal is and continues to be a moving target. Cliff's technology and efforts produced excellent results back in the days of the Axe-FX Standard and Ultra. Just because the technology is getting exceptionally and almost ridiculously good now doesn't mean that he is running out of ideas or ways to improve and innovate.

Sure maybe Cliff wants to cash in and retire. I doubt it though. He has been wildly successful at building products and a business that expands our ideas of what is possible. This takes very strong drive and motivation. I doubt that he is motivated purely by cash. I would respectfully opine that efforts like his must be partly motivated in the desire to build something special and see how far you can go with it. This thing is his baby. He must get so much satisfaction and pride from the way he continues to drive progress in the field and build his empire. I don't see him stepping down as emperor to let some other company step in and ruin a great product line and business.

All this is just my silly opinions, but I wanted to share a very different perspective than Mr. Market-Efficiency-Corporate-Buyout shared above. (Sorry for the teasing). Peace!

I guess the biggest point of mine you apparently missed is this....

ALL I CARE ABOUT is a Super Reverb Fender SRV tone, and Rock tones like EVH Marshall Plexi.

The Fractal already nails those TWO tones to where people can't tell the difference between the Fractal and recordings of the real amps.

That's all I care about or want.

So now that we have that possible, I just wanted it at the best price.

Everything else is just bells & whistles icing on the cake.
 
trolling? or are you really that stupid? because if you think you're being funny, you're not.

No, I'm not trolling, nor can I see anything stupid about my philosophy. It's just the way I think & believe. It's OK dude for you & everyone else to think different than me. I am me, and you are you.
 
One point that went right over your head, the 2500$ is not for the machine only but for all the "free" updates we get. Those are calculated in the price. Any company that gives free updates has calculated the cost of making those updates in the price of the units.

I guarantee Line 6 will be charging for new amps or effects. Mark my words. You'll get amp packs, pedal packs, etc. In the end, a couple years in, you will have paid 2500$ total if you buy all the packs.
 
One point that went right over your head, the 2500$ is not for the machine only but for all the "free" updates we get. Those are calculated in the price. Any company that gives free updates has calculated the cost of making those updates in the price of the units.

I guarantee Line 6 will be charging for new amps or effects. Mark my words. You'll get amp packs, pedal packs, etc. In the end, a couple years in, you will have paid 2500$ total if you buy all the packs.

But I don't care about future Fractal updates, they are not needed...

Fractal has been awesome ever since Mark Day did that song Turn Up The Radio by Autograph & Somebody Get me A Doctor by Van Halen... I think that was what FW 17 or 18????

That particular tone can not be improved upon with any gfurther updates, and that tone, plus the SRV Fender tone Tyler gets on here are ALL that I want the Fractal for. Nothing else.
 
>> "don't care if they are put together in a sweatshop by ten year olds, as long as the quality is 99% there, at the end of the day all I care about is the bottom line, the price.
Nothing in this life is more important than money."

That's a lonely life you live.
I won't be able to read your reply because you're now on my Ignore list.
 
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you are completely forgetting about the man-hours and work put into creating what's in that computer.

oh well, whatever.

No, I get that.
I like Cliff & his product.
I actually would label myself as a Fractal Fanboy because I am so obsessed with Fractal.

All because of Mark Day & Tyler though.

I had the Standard and liked it but sold it after a year. Was never perfectly satisfied or totally blown away until I heard Tyler & Mark Day on here.... they are the sole reasons why I am doing everything in power to get the Axe XL next month.

But even though I am a obsessed fanboy doesn't mean I don't appreciate the idea of saving money in what looks to be becoming a much more competitive market.
 
But I don't care about future Fractal updates, they are not needed...

Fractal has been awesome ever since Mark Day did that song Turn Up The Radio by Autograph & Somebody Get me A Doctor by Van Halen... I think that was what FW 17 or 18????

That particular tone can not be improved upon with any gfurther updates, and that tone, plus the SRV Fender tone Tyler gets on here are ALL that I want the Fractal for. Nothing else.
Because you see it from fw17. The axe started at fw1!!!! Calculated that way:

The helix is 1500$ at firmware 1. Now add updates with 5 amps or pedals or effects. Once they reach all the amps and fx the axe has, at let's say 50$ a pack, you're over 2000$ easily.

Thats whats already included in the axe fx. You can't compare 2 devices without the same features if you don't put them at the same level.

Axe fx with over 200 amps and hundred of effects: 2500$
Helix with 1/3 of that 1500$ + charged updates and packs, easily 2500$ in the end.
 
>> "don't care if they are put together in a sweatshop by ten year olds, as long as the quality is 99% there, at the end of the day all I care about is the bottom line, the price.
Nothing in this life is more important than money."

That's a lonely live you live.
I won't be able to read your reply because you're now on my Ignore list.

That's kool man. I've always loved reading your stuff on here and watching your videos on Fractal.

At least I'm honest.

The only person I care about is MYSELF.
 
My personal prediction for Helix support roadmap would look something like this:

Year 1-2: FW update roughly every 6 mos. Updates will consist of minor bug fixes. Additional amp and effect models will be added. Feature requests will largely be ignored except for maybe one or two of the most major ones. All updates free.

Year 3-4: Additional models will be through paid for add on packs. FW updates will still occur, but less frequently. Maybe one or two additional features may be added.

Year 5- : Product will be replaced by the next best thing. Updates will stop. Additional updates will only address new OS support if you're lucky.

Then again, who knows? New managment might bring better support. Everybody else in the industry is upping their game through mergers, cough cough Behringer, maybe it'll be better.

What I do know though, is that a larger corporate run team catering to a much larger user base will never be able to be as responsive as the FAS team.

Edit: You should read some of the comments made by the L6 development team. Paraphrasing, they go something along the lines of this:
Engineer to management: "We want to develop our dream modeling rig with all of these features that both we and the user base have been asking for. It's going to be way out of the price range that we usually play at."
Management: "Sure, go for it."
Engineer: "Yeah, I knew you were going to say no . . . huh, what? Go for it?"

What happens when management starts saying no?
 
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My personal prediction for Helix support roadmap would look something like this:

Year 1-2: FW update roughly every 6 mos. Updates will consist of minor bug fixes. Additional amp and effect models will be added. Feature requests will largely be ignored except for maybe one or two of the most major ones. All updates free.

Year 3-4: Additional models will be through paid for add on packs. FW updates will still occur, but less frequently. Maybe one or two additional features may be added.

Year 5- : Product will be replaced by the next best thing. Updates will stop. Additional updates will only address new OS support if you're lucky.

Then again, who knows? New manageent might bring better support. Everybody else in the industry is upping their game through mergers, cough cough Behringer, maybe it'll be better.

What I do know though, is that a larger corporate run team catering to a much larger user base will never be able to be as responsive as the FAS team.

All of that is probably true.
But modeling isn't going to get much better than where it already is within Fractal now.
New FW isn't that important. New better units aren't that important.

It's at the point now to where you can pretty much buy a Fractal now, and I bet if you time travel 10 years into the future you won't find a modeler that sounds much if any better than what the Fractal models of Marshall/Fender already sound.
 
>> "don't care if they are put together in a sweatshop by ten year olds, as long as the quality is 99% there, at the end of the day all I care about is the bottom line, the price.
Nothing in this life is more important than money."

That's a lonely live you live.
I won't be able to read your reply because you're now on my Ignore list.

same "problem" here.
 
Another example of diminishing returns..... the G3 technology.... I've listened to all of the recorded examples on here using G3 FW, and it still isn't sounding so good to the point that it makes it as if Tyler should re-record all of his SRV stuff on the Fender presets, or Mark Days Somebody Get Me a Doctor or Turn Up The Radio need to be re-recorded with new FW to sound more like a Marshall.... They were already as good as it really gets at the point when they made those videos, sounded like a real Marshall and a real Fender to ME. What more do people want? for something to sound -better- than REAL? haha
 
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