build twin-sound presets or stick with preset switching?

Alan Benjamin

Alan Benjamin

Inspired
Greetings,

After two attempts at building some basic per-song presets on my new AX8 and not being so happy with the results, I ended up buying a new pair of Alto TS212s and decided to go back and start over once again. My first step was to revisit all the factory presets and narrow down a short list of those that might be best manipulated for my purposes and then built a basic library of about 12 single-sound presets that I'd like to use as the basis for programming what I need for playing my band's live set.

With the exception of two tunes, most of our repertoire requires at least one clean and one overdrive sound--and I've tweaked some very nice overdrive sounds I'd like to leverage--none of which use the same amps (or cabs most likely) as any of my clean sounds. With this mind, my original plan was to build new song-specific presets based on scene 1 having the first tone (normally clean) and scene 2 with the overdrive, starting by copying the more complex reference preset I've built and then manually copying all the components of the other sound I want into the other X/Y slots of corresponding blocks and bypassing what's not needed in either scene. My thought process here is that the scene switching should be faster than relying solely on switching between single-sound presets.

In the process of auditioning some of the sounds, though, I noticed that preset-switching performed just about as quickly as I'll need (even though there are a lot of fairly quick changes--often back and forth several times in the same tune). Additionally, there are some tunes were I really need three distinct tones that I doubt I'll be able to program into the same pair of amps/cabs.

With this in mind, I'm wondering if anyone has advice as to the practicality of sticking mainly with preset switching as opposed to trying to consolidate pairs of sounds together in single presets using scene switching. Also, for the latter, is there any better way to "consolidate" the sounds from two different source presets into a single two-scene preset than the method I mentioned above? Any guidance in this regard would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks a lot and take care,


Alan

P.S. The new tones are really sounding great already!
 
The limitations that you are encountering are some of the reasons that I decided to stay with my Axe-Fx ll. I adopted a 'Preset-per-song' system after the introduction of 'Scenes'

However....You can get multiple gain stages from a single Amp using multiple 'Filter', 'GEQ', 'PEQ', or 'Volume' blocks in front of the Amp block. Set them to cut or boost volume and/or EQ for the different sounds needed. Then just 'un-bypass' the block you need active on a per-scene basis. (and using the drive blocks plus their X/Y functions, CPU permitting)

Also using 'Scene Controllers' to control the Amp block's 'Input Gain', and 'Input Trim', The Drive block's 'Drive', and 'Level' parameters, etc......can squeeze a lot of versatility from a single Amp model.
 
I have a different approach. I try to cover all my sound needs with as few amps and cabs as possible.

I play in a cover band with everything from Chic and Erasure to Van Halen and Europe. I am more or less able to cover everything with the Dirty Shirley and one Cab.

I use drive blocks and filter blocks in front of the amp to give me all the different flavors of drive that I need. I often also add a post amp EQ.

I also use scene controllers, but I find that they are a less intuitive to work with.

When I start a preset, I start with just an amp and cab block, and then I start building scenes/sounds. I look at as a two channel amp with a drive and a booster in front. A compressor block is also really good at shaping the tones for both drives and cleans.
 
Moke said:
The limitations that you are encountering are some of the reasons that I decided to stay with my Axe-Fx ll. I adopted a 'Preset-per-song' system after the introduction of 'Scenes'

However....You can get multiple gain stages from a single Amp using multiple 'Filter', 'GEQ', 'PEQ', or 'Volume' blocks in front of the Amp block. Set them to cut or boost volume and/or EQ for the different sounds needed. Then just 'un-bypass' the block you need active on a per-scene basis. (and using the drive blocks plus their X/Y functions, CPU permitting)

Also using 'Scene Controllers' to control the Amp block's 'Input Gain', and 'Input Trim', The Drive block's 'Drive', and 'Level' parameters, etc......can squeeze a lot of versatility from a single Amp model.
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot for the helpful feedback. Although I feel pretty comfortable about getting around the AX8-Edit interface to modify existing presets (or build new basic presets as well), I have yet to get a good sense for how to apply these type of blocks (Filter, GEQ, PEQ, and Volume) to modify the resulting amp tone in any meaningful way. I'm also having problems finding one amp that can produce at least two of the basic tones I often need to start with: a very clean sound with chorus, a sort of '70s overdrive tone, and a heavier tone of the style I used to get from a Rockman Sustainor going through a Music Man 112 RD amp. (I have built presets that sound great for all three, though, using different amps.)

As such, I think I'll probably have difficulty going down this route until I can get some clearer guidance and/or possibly some sample AX8 presets I can study so that I can learn to manipulate amp tonality to the point where I can dial in at least two of the basic tones I'm looking for from the same amp.

Take care and thanks again for your help,


Alan
 
Smittefar said:
I have a different approach. I try to cover all my sound needs with as few amps and cabs as possible.

I play in a cover band with everything from Chic and Erasure to Van Halen and Europe. I am more or less able to cover everything with the Dirty Shirley and one Cab.

I use drive blocks and filter blocks in front of the amp to give me all the different flavors of drive that I need. I often also add a post amp EQ.

I also use scene controllers, but I find that they are a less intuitive to work with.

When I start a preset, I start with just an amp and cab block, and then I start building scenes/sounds. I look at as a two channel amp with a drive and a booster in front. A compressor block is also really good at shaping the tones for both drives and cleans.
Click to expand...
Much appreciated. It seems like your recommendation is very much in line with what Moke said (above), however it's rather impressive to hear that you can cover so many tones with a single amp and one cabinet. Like I mentioned above, though, I don't really have a good sense for how to use drive or filter (or EQ) blocks ahead of the amp to effectively manipulate the results in a musical way at this point. (I've built about 4-5 presets where I tried to use a drive on top of a good clean amp/cab combo, but the results have always ended up sounding too thin--especially on the bottom end.)

So, for the immediate future, I'm probably stuck between the two original options I mentioned: changing between single-sound presets or building two-scene presets (or a combination of the two).

Take care and thanks again for your help,


Alan
 
Smittefar said:
I have a different approach. I try to cover all my sound needs with as few amps and cabs as possible.

I play in a cover band with everything from Chic and Erasure to Van Halen and Europe. I am more or less able to cover everything with the Dirty Shirley and one Cab.

I use drive blocks and filter blocks in front of the amp to give me all the different flavors of drive that I need. I often also add a post amp EQ.

I also use scene controllers, but I find that they are a less intuitive to work with.

When I start a preset, I start with just an amp and cab block, and then I start building scenes/sounds. I look at as a two channel amp with a drive and a booster in front. A compressor block is also really good at shaping the tones for both drives and cleans.
Click to expand...

Hi @Smittefar. Just wondering if you can elaborate on how the compressor helps you derive tone in the AX8. I've had a bit of a love / hate relationship with compressors and never really bonded with any of them. I get the effect it has on dynamics and sustain etc but am not sure about the effect it has on tone.
 
@Alan Benjamin Of course I cannot get the exact tones from all our covers from one amp. But when I just used a tube amp, I had to adjust as well as I could, and I am doing much of the same with this tool.

Try the Dirty Shirley, put input trim at 0.5, input gain at 0.9 and Master volume around 4. That should be fairly clean, even with humbuckers, then raise input gain to 6 and Master to 10 (and adjust level). That should be a fairly overdriven sound.

@mmpete: The compressor is often used to adjust the level going into the amp as well as to smoothen out the transients. So you can 'kill' your transients going into the amp, and lower the level for a perfectly clean and even tone. On the other hand, you can kill transients and boost the level to have a smooth saturated overdriven tone.
 
Smittefar said:
@Alan Benjamin Of course I cannot get the exact tones from all our covers from one amp. But when I just used a tube amp, I had to adjust as well as I could, and I am doing much of the same with this tool.

Try the Dirty Shirley, put input trim at 0.5, input gain at 0.9 and Master volume around 4. That should be fairly clean, even with humbuckers, then raise input gain to 6 and Master to 10 (and adjust level). That should be a fairly overdriven sound.
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot for the detailed follow-up. I'll definitely give this a shot (as soon as I'm past scrambling to prepare for tomorrow night's rehearsal) and let you know how it goes.

In my particular case, I'm only trying to cover my own recorded tones--most of which fall into the three categories I mentioned earlier plus a big volume-pedal swell sound (typically based on my chorused clean sound with different EQ and added compression and delay)--so I'm really hoping to be able to come up with at least one basic preset I can use for the other three sounds (that can be modified a little to taste per song, guitar, etc.). For the sake of clarity, perhaps I'll try linking up one good example of each tone when I get a chance too, as I suppose this can only help.

All the best and thanks again,

Alan
 
Try taking a look at the LM life pad thread in the preset section. It really covers a lot of ground from ambient sound scapes to dry drive sounds.
 
Hi again,

In case it helps, here are examples of the three basic tones I'm trying to emulate here:

Chorused clean sound:



'70s overdrive tone:



Heavier modern tone (probably best to fast forward to the 3:06 mark where the solos start):



Please note that I tried to get all media to queue at the desired starting point, but the last (SoundCloud) link stripped this info when I went to embed it.

Again, would definitely appreciate any help with trying to make these types of tones coexist in the same preset (ideally with the first chorused clean sound being common to all).

Take care and thanks again,


Alan
 
try putting your 3 presets in a bank next to each other ,then in each of those presets set your footswicthes to go to the other presets in your bank that you need. You say you only need 3-4 sounds, that leaves 4 other switches for block or scene swithching.
 
Jeff Engler said:
try putting your 3 presets in a bank next to each other ,then in each of those presets set your footswicthes to go to the other presets in your bank that you need. You say you only need 3-4 sounds, that leaves 4 other switches for block or scene swithching.
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Appreciate the feedback, Jeff. That's pretty much how I did things with my previous setup based primarily on a Vox ToneLab SE going into a Fender Hot Rod DeVille 410 amp. There are a few variations in my tones--and guitars--that would drive me to leverage about 6-7 tones overall, but all would still be based on these three main tones (plus a swell sound adapted from my chorused clean sound). Based on my understanding of the AX8 so far, though, I'm thinking that:
  1. I believe the "dead time" when alternating between clean and dirty sounds could be minimized if changed via scenes in the same preset (as opposed to changing presets).
  2. It would be rather sweet to be able to leverage the S1S2 footswitch toggle capability to alternate back and forth between these two types of tones (in the same preset). If going the preset-switching route instead, though, I suppose I could orchestrate the same kind of thing where footswitch 1 in a clean patch calls up the intended overdrive preset and program the latter footswitch 1 with the preset number that will return me to the clean sound.
If the "dead time" isn't really that much different between the scene and preset switching options, though, I think I'd be happy trying the latter route instead.

Cheers,


Alan
 
Chris (AxeFXTutorials) has a (free) video that shows that if you have a complex (high CPU) preset, it is just as fast (or even faster) to change preset as to change scenes, if the scene change uses an amp X/Y change.
 
I use 1 preset per song, with 4 scenes setup for my rhythm,lead, solo parts... I have them setup from left to right... Scene 1(switch #5) is the intro, scene 2 (switch #6) is the verse, etc...
 
Smittefar said:
the youtube vids are not available :(

Based on the soundcloud solo, I might try the CAE+ lead or the Triptik Modern.
Click to expand...
Really appreciate the info in both of your replies. I'll definitely give both of those amps a try as soon as I have a chance.

Sorry about the YouTube restrictions (presumably geographic, based on what CD Baby posted). Here are alternate links for the same tracks:


Please fast forward to the 3:00 mark to hear the chorused clean sound most prominently.


The '70s overdrive tone in question can be heard at the section which begins around the 1:51 mark.

I initially preferred the YouTube links, as I was able to queue them up to the right start time automatically.

Based on your previous reply, though, I'm now thinking it may be best for me to create streamlined single-tone presets and lay out what I need by optimizing preset-based footswitch controls in each. (This would be easier, actually, and more closely emulate my previous workflow.)

Take care and thanks again for your help,


Alan
 
I thought that I might be able to start a preset for you, but soundwise, you are waaay out of my comfort zone - It sounds great, but I have no idea how to build sounds like that.

I think, you could get away with going direct (no AMP or CAB block) for your clean chorused sounds, and you might be able to find your lead tones in a dumble or a Mesa Boogie.
 
Smittefar said:
I thought that I might be able to start a preset for you, but soundwise, you are waaay out of my comfort zone - It sounds great, but I have no idea how to build sounds like that.

I think, you could get away with going direct (no AMP or CAB block) for your clean chorused sounds, and you might be able to find your lead tones in a dumble or a Mesa Boogie.
Click to expand...
Thanks very much, both for thinking about try to build me a starter preset as well as the kind words. I'll definitely try out all of your suggestions when I get a chance too.

Based on my own experiments (thus far), I've been using the USA Clean Pre and Double Verb Vib amps for clean tones, the ODS-100 HRM for my '70s overdrive sound, and the following three amps for the heavier tones I've liked best thus far:
  1. TX Star Lead with BB Pre DRV
  2. Plexi 100W High with T808 OD DRV
  3. USA Lead Brt + (without any DRV)
All these selections were based on factory presets that seemed to sound/respond closely enough to what I wanted and were tweaked to the point where they are starting to sit in the pocket pretty nicely. I know I'm on a big learning curve, though, so I really appreciate all your help--and everyone else's too.

All the best,

Alan
 
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