12" wedges vs. 15" wedges

barhrecords said:
Yeah I got hooked on Bag End when I read an article by Herbie Hancock saying how clear they were; especially in the low register.

I've got the FOH system mentioned above, and two TA12 Jr. passive 2-way 12" tops and two TA12 2-way 12" wedges.

The 12" tops have the pole mount so I can have a mini FOH rig with the 12" tops on poles on top of a single 18 sub on each side. That mini FOH rig sounds fantastic for acoustic acts!!!
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Probably sounds fantastic for just about any act.
 
barhrecords said:
Yeah I got hooked on Bag End when I read an article by Herbie Hancock saying how clear they were; especially in the low register.

I've got the FOH system mentioned above, and two TA12 Jr. passive 2-way 12" tops and two TA12 2-way 12" wedges.

The 12" tops have the pole mount so I can have a mini FOH rig with the 12" tops on poles on top of a single 18 sub on each side. That mini FOH rig sounds fantastic for acoustic acts!!!
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Funny, I do almost the same thing.
For small rooms, I have the single 18" JBL SRX718 subs....and we use the single 12" JBL SR4732 (monitors) as tops, because they pole mount. Killer small system.
I'm glad I'm not the only other guy out there with a basement full of PA gear...
 
MisterE said:
I'm interested in the comparison between 12" and 15" for the following reason.
If you play through a single 12" or 4 12" speakers like in a 4x12" cab, you get a whole different sound.
With the 4x12, due to coupling you get more oomph, more bass.
I've read this is related to the increase in speaker size but only translates to the frequencies below a certain wavelength that's directly related to the distance of each speaker cone.
That's why you get a bigger bass response.
If the usage of multiple speakers translate into a bigger bass response, wouldn't this also work for a bigger speaker?
So a 15" would give you more thump and oomph and all that and get you closer to the sound of 4x12"?
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It really depends on what you define as "more bass", "thump" and "oomph". There isn't much below 100hz in typical 4x12 Marshall type cabinets. The ability to produce low frequencies from drivers is limited by a factor called Vd, or Peak Diaphragm Displacement Volume. This is derived from the Sd, or Surface Area of the cone multiplied by XMax, which is the distance that the cone travels. A lot of folks say that more or bigger drivers "move more air" but in reality it depends on both of these factors.

Using Eminence drivers as an example, compare the specs of the Man-O-War 12"

THIELE & SMALL PARAMETERS
Resonant Frequency (fs)91Hz
DC Resistance (Re)6.2
Coil Inductance (Le)0.43mH
Mechanical Q (Qms)11.66
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)0.72
Total Q (Qts)0.68
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)38 liters / 1.3 cu.ft.
Peak Diaphragm Displacement Volume (Vd)42cc
Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms)0.1mm/N
BL Product (BL)12.3 T-M
Diaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (MMs)31 grams
Efficiency Bandwidth Product (EBP)127
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)0.8mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)519.5 cm2
Maximum Mechanical Limit (Xlim)N/A




Now look at the Definimax 12 which is a full range PA driver:

THIELE & SMALL PARAMETERS
Resonant Frequency (fs)46Hz
DC Resistance (Re)5.85
Coil Inductance (Le)1.17mH
Mechanical Q (Qms)5.74
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)0.38
Total Q (Qts)0.35
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)59.4 liters / 2.1 cu.ft.
Peak Diaphragm Displacement Volume (Vd)342cc
Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms)0.14mm/N
BL Product (BL)19.6 T-M
Diaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (MMs)86 grams
Efficiency Bandwidth Product (EBP)121
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)6.2mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)552 cm2
Maximum Mechanical Limit (Xlim)11.2mm




In a properly sized and tuned cabinet, 1 Definimax would roughly meet or exceed 8 Man-O-War drivers from 40hz - 100hz. Above 100hz the advantage would shift to the 8 drivers, or two 4x12 cabinets, due to coupling etc.

If you want the response/feel of traditional guitar cabs, going lower is not the answer IMO - the "chest thump" and "seat of pants" feel exists above 100hz. I think that this is a big reason so many have problems running FRFR, these cabs produce frequencies much lower and higher than guitar cabs with the result of many using custom IR mixes, PEQ's, advanced Amp parameters etc to dial out lows and highs.
 
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So what kind of characteristics would we see with the top of the line B&C 12" and 15" coax drivers? This is very helpful and thanks for posting.


12hcx76

Fs 42 Hz
Re 5 ohm
Qes 0.2
Qms 8
Qts 0.19
Vas 120 dm3 (4.2 ft3)
Sd 522 cm2 (80.9 in2)
EtaZero 4.1 %
XMax +- 4 mm
Xvar +- 6 mm
Mms 47 g
Bl 17.6 Txm
Le 0.8 mH



15CXN76

Fs 38 Hz
Re 5.1 ohm
Qes 0.3
Qms 5.8
Qts 0.28
Vas 246 dm3 (8.6 ft3)
Sd 855 cm2 (132.5 in2)
EtaZero 3.7 %
XMax +- 4.5 mm
Xvar +- 6 mm
Mms 82 g
Bl 17.8 Txm
Le 0.9 mH
 
I’m glad that I came across this post because I’m in the process of buying some high quality wedges and I had assumed that 12s were the way to go. However, according to a couple of threads on here, it obviously sounds like I’m going to be much happier with the 15s since they push more air. Correct?
 
bufon63 said:
I’m glad that I came across this post because I’m in the process of buying some high quality wedges and I had assumed that 12s were the way to go. However, according to a couple of threads on here, it obviously sounds like I’m going to be much happier with the 15s since they push more air. Correct?
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I'd listen to a few in different sizes and decide after you check them out.
 
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Thanks but not interested in 8s or 10s, I would like something more substantial which leaves 12s or 15s. Unfortunately I don't have the option of trying out both so I'm just going to go with the 15s. It makes more sense to me as they are more versatile.
 
bufon63 said:
Thanks but not interested in 8s or 10s, I would like something more substantial which leaves 12s or 15s. Unfortunately I don't have the option of trying out both so I'm just going to go with the 15s. It makes more sense to me as they are more versatile.
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I've never used the big boi EAW or Meyer or Clair 15" wedges... but a lot of other brands.

From my own experience, I prefer 12" wedges with bigger speakers as side fills. I have the exact opposite opinion 15" wedges are not nearly as versatile.

Richard
 
bufon63 said:
Thanks but not interested in 8s or 10s, I would like something more substantial which leaves 12s or 15s. Unfortunately I don't have the option of trying out both so I'm just going to go with the 15s. It makes more sense to me as they are more versatile.
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I'd talk to more people about that opinion; and I'd add in audio professionals and even DJ's to that discussion. You'll find the consensus is the opposite. For good reasons too.

I know 'three' and some others here have made it a mission to announce otherwise - and in their opinion, they favor 15" over 12" for various reasons. But they are not talking about the typical less than $1000 USD monitor in the first place. I strongly favor 12" monitors over 15" in my experience and my opinion is counter to the "15" is more versatile" in fact I find quite the opposite.

That said, you must try them for yourself to form your opinion - if the 15" works for you, then great! If the 12" works for you, great! There is no absolute and no right or wrong. But consider the source of said opinions when weighing said opinions. Context and experience shared is more important, in my book, than just strongly asserting your opinion over and over with no context added to it to support it.

Use your ears.
 
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I do feel that in my situation the 15s will be more versatile, as occasionally keyboards will be played through them and on the odd occasion maybe even used for our drummer to monitor himself. I feel that the 15s will have the depth for more versatile monitoring.

I don’t know what’s gone on between you and three but I just found this thread of interest.

As for “ask a DJ”, sorry but I wouldn’t even entertain the idea, thanks.
 
Sounds like 15s will be perfect for you. It is too bad you can't hear both. But I am sure you will love them. You are right about the versatility of the 15s as well. I am sure there will be situations where you may have to share your wedges with others. While the 12s will be quite good for guitar the 15s will do guitar as well as anything else you may need for your band. I am not sure what that guys problem is with me either. I think he does duos and the Achy Breaky thing. So perhaps he prefers 12s. He said 15s suck for guitar and I am pretty sure he hasn't tried the RCF NX15s so not sure if he is in a position to make a valued judgement. I have heard and tried both myself with the Axe and I think you will be very very happy. However it is good advice to talk to an audio professional. You will probably find that they don't use single 12s on stage as wedges. Maybe he was joking about the DJ thing. Good luck and let us all know how it goes.
 
three said:
Sounds like 15s will be perfect for you. It is too bad you can't hear both. But I am sure you will love them. You are right about the versatility of the 15s as well. I am sure there will be situations where you may have to share your wedges with others. While the 12s will be quite good for guitar the 15s will do guitar as well as anything else you may need for your band. I am not sure what that guys problem is with me either. I think he does duos and the Achy Breaky thing. So perhaps he prefers 12s. He said 15s suck for guitar and I am pretty sure he hasn't tried the RCF NX15s so not sure if he is in a position to make a valued judgement. I have heard and tried both myself with the Axe and I think you will be very very happy. However it is good advice to talk to an audio professional. You will probably find that they don't use single 12s on stage as wedges. Maybe he was joking about the DJ thing. Good luck and let us all know how it goes.
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Well, that's not accurate, polite or nice. No reason to post in this manner.
 
Scott Peterson said:
I've never claimed to have heard them. I've never commented on them either, negatively or positively. I don't talk out of school.
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Well you own the NX12s. You know how excellent they are. So I am sure its not too hard for you to guess how excellent the NX15s are.
 
knoll said:
Search (from this forum/the old forum/any other forum) for Jay Mitchell's comments about 15" speakers. Here's one

"I'll repeat: regardless of the quality or expense of the parts used, there is no way to make a well-behaved two way system with a 15" and a horn, unless you can execute the crossover below 900Hz. This low a crossover frequency requires a large HF horn - larger than you can fit into a small cabinet - and a very robust HF driver, and those devices will not function well at frequencies above 10kHz. "
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By "well-behaved," Jay was referring to the midrange "beaming" you get when you ask a 15" speaker to reproduce frequencies above ~900 Hz. Often, guitarists don't notice that, because they're used to traditional guitar cabs, which are beamy as all hell. But for monitoring or FOH purposes, they're not ideal; anyone sitting or standing off-axis from the speaker will hear a midrange dip. Listen to a 15" two-way system while walking back and forth in front of it. You'll see what I mean.
 
barhrecords said:
I'm not sure that any speaker array can create frequencies below what is being input? IOW, say the open E string of a six string guitar in std tuning is about 82.4hz. Would a 1-12" cabinet produce any frequencies below 82.4 or would a 4-12" cab?
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You're right about a standard-tuned guitar not producing notes below 80 Hz, but your pick attack does have components below that. On the other hand, that low-end thump is the first thing that recording or live-sound engineers pull out of your signal, because it muddies up the mix.
 
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A 1x12 should easily produce frequencies below 80. And yes a 15 will have a slightly recessed midrange as compared to 12 but for me personally the tradeoff of having a "bigger" sound is worth it. These modern coax speakers are ridiculously good. The idea of using 15s for a guitar rig even seems strange to me. But when I try them I can't help but think if I had the 15s my search would be over for good. For what it is worth, I was asked to fill in for a band on bass last weekend. I couldn't bring a bass cab. A guy in the band said he had an 18" cab he could bring. I thought about it and decided I would just bring my rig. I brought my 2 12" wedges. I spent 3 minutes setting up the Axe with the SVT sim. There was no real tweaking involved. I was pleasantly surprised. I had the Matrix on 3/4 and the Axe master at half. I was asked to turn down several times. I was surprised how punchy my little setup was. Yes it was a bit spiked in the midrange (but it was also a Rickenbacker bass...) however I suddenly realised how lucky I was to have such a great and versatile rig. Its almost shocking what it is capable of. The 12s absolutely delivered. I also had a quick rehearsal a few nights ago. I brought my rig. We plugged the mixer into the Matrix, and had three microphones and my Axe going through it. Again the 12s (and the Matrix) absolutely delivered. My intention has never been to dismiss 12s. It is simply to say that I do prefer 15s and the perceivable (or imagined) air and thump they produce. These modern 15 coaxes are far less muddy then people think they are. And many people (me included) would tend to dismiss them as a great FR solution. I do feel blessed to have what I do have. Perhaps part of it is the GAS syndrome. Since getting the Axe I have not even looked at any other amps or effects. For me that is almost unfathomable. I bought the 12s assuming it would be the best solution for me. I am not trying to complain. I am simply saying if I could do it again I would get the 15s.
 
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Personal preferences are just that... you like 15" wedges so rock on!

But I have been gigging since the late 80's, small bars, clubs, coffee houses, festivals, etc. In all that time the rental companies and sound house systems I see, it was rare to see anything but 12" wedges.

Bigger side fills yes, but way and above dominated by 12" wedges.

I feel like that is the contention, 15" wedges, just from my experience, are rarer and specialized.

But hey, I gots no problem with how anybody prefers to make their beautiful noise :) Rock on gentlemen!

Richard
 
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