12" wedges vs. 15" wedges

[BBN]

I miss Jay...

+1

 

[three]

I think here is where you lost me.

Are you saying the same wedge cabinet dimensions with an input signal rolled off at say 80hz; the wedge with the 15" speaker will be producing lower frequencies than the 12" driver?

I see where two different wedges one 15" and one 12" are apples and oranges. And also that there are very ineffecient 12" speakers and very efficient 15's... but it comes back to apples and oranges to me... still lost here.

Richard

The cabinets would not be the same size. As the 15 would require a slightly larger cabinet. But the 15s would sound bigger and push more air, and yes I suppose a bit more low end. I am referring to modern dual concentric speakers from RCF and B&C which are very efficient speakers.

 

[three]

Where?

You joined this forum to ask where to find something Jay said? Have a search I am sure you will find it.

 

[three]

No. I'm interested in seeing how someone would explain or defend the statement you attribute to him, if he actually made it. Did he actually say that? If so, where?

It was a couple of years back. As I said if you want to search for it you are welcome to. It was something to do with a comment about Axe Users wouldn't be able to tell the difference between SS power amps. Someone suggested that he sell his expensive Brystons and replace them with a cheaper alternative since there would not be a perceivable difference. I don't think he did.

 

[three]

Here's what I found: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/amps-cabs/27041-pro-audio-1u-ss-power-amp-review-6.html#post417448. In that message, he said, "If you guys are looking for the cheapest possible amplifier, there are all sorts of sonic compromises you may end up being exposed to, but that is not because you can hear differences among reasonably well-designed power amps. I would expect an Axe-Fx user - who presumably spent the extra money in return for the performance - to accompany the device with appropriate amplification. I realize that there are a number of music-store devices that may fall short, but the Axe-Fx is not a music-store device." That is exactly the opposite of what you claim he said, yet it appears to be the message you're talking about.

Yes and this was said earlier

Not only do most of them sound the same, most of them introduce no audible alterations to the signal. If you own such an amp and then decide that some other amp sounds "better," you have chosen a less accurate amplifier.

Either way I am not bothered. Jay (you?) always seemed like a clever guy who knows his onions. However his (your?) bedside manner was sorely lacking IMO. 15" wedges are used by every major act on every major stage in the world. They are continuously being manufactured by all of the top companies. The design may have its drawbacks, but the benefits are well worth it IMO. Who am I going to listen to? Jay or them? If its good enough for Eric Johnson and David Gilmour its good enough for me.

 

[Patzag]

I use Meyersound UP Juniors with 8" speakers.
I also tried the unliftable (new word) USM 1 which has a 15" woofer. For guitar applications, I like the UP Junior better. One of the reasons is that it is a tightly focused sound with a very even response. I found the 15" slightly lacking in the mids.
The tone I get from the UP Junior is very close to what I get with my in-ears. So I don't have to re-teak my Global EQ when I switch from one to the other.
I also used D&B Max12 co-axial 12 inch speakers. Great boxes for guitar and voice but not enough oomph to handle Bass and Kick.
So I think that the discussion should not be so blanketed about 12 or 15 but more focused on application and models as not all 12s or 15s are created equal.
I can name a lot of 15s that suck and a few that rock. Same with 12s OMG.
Also, a good 2x10 or 4x10 moves a lot of air and sounds fantastic. There's tons of great choices out there.

I'd be curious to hear good assessments of people who have used various speakers and how they relate to each other. A statement like "my 15 rocks" is hard to evaluate because it rocks compared to what?

 

[three]

I use Meyersound UP Juniors with 8" speakers.
I also tried the unliftable (new word) USM 1 which has a 15" woofer. For guitar applications, I like the UP Junior better. One of the reasons is that it is a tightly focused sound with a very even response. I found the 15" slightly lacking in the mids.
The tone I get from the UP Junior is very close to what I get with my in-ears. So I don't have to re-teak my Global EQ when I switch from one to the other.
I also used D&B Max12 co-axial 12 inch speakers. Great boxes for guitar and voice but not enough oomph to handle Bass and Kick.
So I think that the discussion should not be so blanketed about 12 or 15 but more focused on application and models as not all 12s or 15s are created equal.
I can name a lot of 15s that suck and a few that rock. Same with 12s OMG.
Also, a good 2x10 or 4x10 moves a lot of air and sounds fantastic. There's tons of great choices out there.

I'd be curious to hear good assessments of people who have used various speakers and how they relate to each other. A statement like "my 15 rocks" is hard to evaluate because it rocks compared to what?

+1

 

[barhrecords]

I use Meyersound UP Juniors with 8" speakers.
I also tried the unliftable (new word) USM 1 which has a 15" woofer. For guitar applications, I like the UP Junior better. One of the reasons is that it is a tightly focused sound with a very even response. I found the 15" slightly lacking in the mids.
The tone I get from the UP Junior is very close to what I get with my in-ears. So I don't have to re-teak my Global EQ when I switch from one to the other.
I also used D&B Max12 co-axial 12 inch speakers. Great boxes for guitar and voice but not enough oomph to handle Bass and Kick.
So I think that the discussion should not be so blanketed about 12 or 15 but more focused on application and models as not all 12s or 15s are created equal.
I can name a lot of 15s that suck and a few that rock. Same with 12s OMG.
Also, a good 2x10 or 4x10 moves a lot of air and sounds fantastic. There's tons of great choices out there.

I'd be curious to hear good assessments of people who have used various speakers and how they relate to each other. A statement like "my 15 rocks" is hard to evaluate because it rocks compared to what?

+1

I would love to get a shootout of the 12" RCF vs. the 15" RCF so we could get close to apples to apples.

With my wedges I prefer a 12" 2-way over a a 15" 2-way hands down for guitar and vox. But it's because my 12" wedges are just better designed (and btw more expensive) than the 15"s that I happen to have too.

Richard

 

[srooijens]

Jay can say whatever he wants. The fact is there are plenty of great sounding 15" designs.

On anything concerning speakers and/or acoustics Jay was always right, I've never been able to spot a mistake in his posts on these subjects.

A 15" speaker can be great if it doesn't have to do much above 400 Hz or so. That requires at least a 3-way system.
I've yet to hear a 15" 2-way system I like. Certainly haven't encountered a great one yet and I doubt I ever will...


At the small to medium stages I'm usually playing though I don't feel I'm missing anything at all with just a pair of 8" speakers.
The RCF TT08a's are kicking!

By the way, they replaced a Yamaha Stagepas 300; Also a 2 x 8" system but they were NOT quite enough for me.
One 8" is not the same as the other! Both in quality and quantity the RCF's are several big steps up from the Yammy system.

Same thing goes for 10", 12", 15" or any other size.
Just because you have experience with some 12" speakers that didn't cut it for you doesn't mean there are none that could make you very happy.
It is not all about size!

 

[three]

This part is missing: "He also said you wouldn't hear the difference between a $2,000 amplifier and a $300 amplifier." That is an extreme statement, and it's not in the message I found. Apparently it is the message you had in mind, so it seems a fair conclusion that you remembered incorrectly, no?

It was a year and a half ago so I don't remember exactly. But alluding to the idea that "most power amps sound the same" is pretty silly, no?

 

[Scott Peterson]

It was a year and a half ago so I don't remember exactly. But alluding to the idea that "most power amps sound the same" is pretty silly, no?

...as is alluding to the idea that all 15" monitors are superior to all 12" monitors... for monitoring guitar direct...

... hint: don't throw stones in glass houses.

 

[Scott Peterson]

On anything concerning speakers and/or acoustics Jay was always right, I've never been able to spot a mistake in his posts on these subjects.

A 15" speaker can be great if it doesn't have to do much above 400 Hz or so. That requires at least a 3-way system.
I've yet to hear a 15" 2-way system I like. Certainly haven't encountered a great one yet and I doubt I ever will...
View attachment 7365

At the small to medium stages I'm usually playing though I don't feel I'm missing anything at all with just a pair of 8" speakers.
The RCF TT08a's are kicking!

By the way, they replaced a Yamaha Stagepas 300; Also a 2 x 8" system but they were NOT quite enough for me.
One 8" is not the same as the other! Both in quality and quantity the RCF's are several big steps up from the Yammy system.

Same thing goes for 10", 12", 15" or any other size.
Just because you have experience with some 12" speakers that didn't cut it for you doesn't mean there are none that could make you very happy.
It is not all about size!

Truth noted in bold by me.

 

[three]

...as is alluding to the idea that all 15" monitors are superior to all 12" monitors... for monitoring guitar direct...

... hint: don't throw stones in glass houses.

I don't remember saying 15s were superior. I said the RCF 12s were excellent. I said I prefer the RCF 15s. I also said its important to try both before you buy.

....hint: Try both before you buy.

 

[barhrecords]

I agree about 2-way 15" systems vs. 3-way systems.

I think the 3-way systems I've A/B sounded flatter.

Right now my FOH rig is 2-way 15" + 2 x 18" subs... I definitely hear and compensate for the dip in the 500-1000hz range.

I wonder if the natural dip in the "mudzone" frequencies that a 15" 2-way system typically has is what some people like about it?

 

[BBN]

I agree about 2-way 15" systems vs. 3-way systems.

I think the 3-way systems I've A/B sounded flatter.

Right now my FOH rig is 2-way 15" + 2 x 18" subs... I definitely hear and compensate for the dip in the 500-1000hz range.

I wonder if the natural dip in the "mudzone" frequencies that a 15" 2-way system typically has is what some people like about it?

I have a similar FOH, but I have 2 way Dual 12" Tops (JBL SRX722) and Dual 18" subs. No dip in the mid range. The system sounds killer.
I tried the 2-Way 15" Tops (JBL SRX715) and absolutely hated them.

 

[barhrecords]

I have a similar FOH, but I have 2 way Dual 12" Tops (JBL SRX722) and Dual 18" subs. No dip in the mid range. The system sounds killer.
I tried the 2-Way 15" Tops (JBL SRX715) and absolutely hated them.

Mine are all Bag End. The old passive TA1500 tops and S-18 subs. They sound pretty good actually. The tops were high $$ back in the day as they say.

Bag End have their own crossover / processor that helps tremendously too. I run each top at 8 ohms and 2 subs on each side in parallel for a 4 ohm load per side.

A little 31-band graphic tweak across the FOH buss and its good to go

 

[three]

I have a similar FOH, but I have 2 way Dual 12" Tops (JBL SRX722) and Dual 18" subs. No dip in the mid range. The system sounds killer.
I tried the 2-Way 15" Tops (JBL SRX715) and absolutely hated them.

Definitely a great way to go for front of house. I would not use a two way 15 for FOH either if I had my choice. 2x12s with a horn would certainly probably make the ultimate wedge monitor as in the D&B M2. But the footprint would probably be prohibitive in most venues. But the sound sure is glorious.

 

[BBN]

Agreed, dual 12 would be a killer monitor for the Axe.
Looks like the XiTone guys are going that route....so they may have a great solution coming.

 

[three]

Mine are all Bag End. The old passive TA1500 tops and S-18 subs. They sound pretty good actually. The tops were high $$ back in the day as they say.

Bag End have their own crossover / processor that helps tremendously too. I run each top at 8 ohms and 2 subs on each side in parallel for a 4 ohm load per side.

A little 31-band graphic tweak across the FOH buss and its good to go

Great stuff

 

[barhrecords]

Great stuff

Yeah I got hooked on Bag End when I read an article by Herbie Hancock saying how clear they were; especially in the low register.

I've got the FOH system mentioned above, and two TA12 Jr. passive 2-way 12" tops and two TA12 2-way 12" wedges.

The 12" tops have the pole mount so I can have a mini FOH rig with the 12" tops on poles on top of a single 18 sub on each side. That mini FOH rig sounds fantastic for acoustic acts!!!