12" wedges vs. 15" wedges

T

three

Inspired
I appear to be one of the few people who prefers 15" wedges for guitar monitoring. My reasons have been that many of the high end 12" wedges don't seem to reach low enough to produce a traditional guitar cab feel. I have also found that my AXE patches done with headphones seem to translate to 15s better. I do not claim to be an expert, but it seems to me that the 12" dual concentrics seem to be geared more for mid top boxes. The 15s feel more "full range" to me. I do not wish to incite anger from people who currently own 12s as I own 12s myself. However I was wondering if anyone else feels their 12" wedges slightly lacking.
 
I've got three sets of wedges, 2 2-way 12" sets and one 2-way 15" set.

I've also got a Marshall 4x12 Tv cab with greenbacks (out on loan to my bro), Marshall 2x12, Fender Twin with 70's Jensens and a Bogner Shiva combo with a Celestion (? not sure what's in that lol)

I can get the 4x12 to rattle a stage / room. But I end up dialing all that out anyway so I don't see that as an advantage.

In my case, my best wedges a 12" so they definitely sound the best for me. My 15"s sound too loose for my taste.

The only 15" wedges beside my own that I've used were the old QSC Hpr series 15's. They were okay but didn't blow my mind. We played an outdoor festival and I was playing bass direct. The sound crew convinced me to take a QSC Hpr 12" vs. the 15". I was skeptical but it actually worked better for me on that gig. And when I play bass I take a whole band mix but with the kick drum and my bass guitar (and my vox) boosted by 2db.

Richard
 
barhrecords said:
I've got three sets of wedges, 2 2-way 12" sets and one 2-way 15" set.

I've also got a Marshall 4x12 Tv cab with greenbacks (out on loan to my bro), Marshall 2x12, Fender Twin with 70's Jensens and a Bogner Shiva combo with a Celestion (? not sure what's in that lol)

I can get the 4x12 to rattle a stage / room. But I end up dialing all that out anyway so I don't see that as an advantage.

In my case, my best wedges a 12" so they definitely sound the best for me. My 15"s sound too loose for my taste.

The only 15" wedges beside my own that I've used were the old QSC Hpr series 15's. They were okay but didn't blow my mind. We played an outdoor festival and I was playing bass direct. The sound crew convinced me to take a QSC Hpr 12" vs. the 15". I was skeptical but it actually worked better for me on that gig. And when I play bass I take a whole band mix but with the kick drum and my bass guitar (and my vox) boosted by 2db.

Richard
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Those TV cabs are excellent. Great combination with the oversized cab and midrangy greenbacks. I don't want to mislead any one into thinking I like the 15s because they rattle the stage or produce a chunky mid scooped sound. I just think they seem to give the air and depth (not bass) you feel from a 4x12. I think the modern 12 neos are great drivers but they seem to need a bigger box to do their thing the best. Its interesting that you got better results from the QSC 12s. In theory the 12s should be a bit faster and tighter. Were you only going through the 12 at the festival or did you have side fills as well?
 
We had six powered wedges and no side fills.

The wedges were a mix of Hpr 12's and Hpr 15's. The monitor desk was a Yamaha PM5D (not sure about that but it was Yamaha).

I went with a 12" wedge for bass on the recommend of the crew and they were right. I could clearly hear the drummers 15" wedge but it was definitely wobbly compared to mine.

For me, it's really dependent on the brand etc. I'm sure there are monstrous 15" wedges from Meyer and EAW out there that would rock anybody's world :)

For guitar I play in 1/2 step down or standard 99% of the time. So my lowest frequency is going to be around 80hz. No sweat for a 12" wedge.

Richard
 
I don't think the size of the speaker necessarily correlates to the amount of bass produced by the wedge. A lot of these supposedly "flat response" monitors have a ton of EQ shaping going on.

For instance, my QSC K10 with 10" speaker has much more bass than a 12" Atomic Reactor wedge running at about the same volume. I have A/B'd them back to back.

So my suggestion is to use your ears and not so much look at the specs.
 
AdamCook said:
I don't think the size of the speaker necessarily correlates to the amount of bass produced by the wedge. A lot of these supposedly "flat response" monitors have a ton of EQ shaping going on.

For instance, my QSC K10 with 10" speaker has much more bass than a 12" Atomic Reactor wedge running at about the same volume. I have A/B'd them back to back.

So my suggestion is to use your ears and not so much look at the specs.
Click to expand...

Very good point always try first. I compared my 12s to some small 8" two ways about a month ago. And the 8s had more bass than my 12s. However I have tried to use 8s as monitors before and they seem to get swallowed up on stage. I don't know if it has to do with area or air. But no doubt in a small room the 8s were amazing.
 
AdamCook said:
I don't think the size of the speaker necessarily correlates to the amount of bass produced by the wedge. A lot of these supposedly "flat response" monitors have a ton of EQ shaping going on.

For instance, my QSC K10 with 10" speaker has much more bass than a 12" Atomic Reactor wedge running at about the same volume. I have A/B'd them back to back.

So my suggestion is to use your ears and not so much look at the specs.
Click to expand...

Amen!

And there is always this speaker (in reference to the original RCF hijacked thread :))...

http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/pro-speaker-systems/nx-series/nx-15-sma

if you like 15" wedges
 
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barhrecords said:
Amen!

And there is always this speaker (in reference to the original RCF hijacked thread :))...

RCF - NX 15-SMA

if you like 15" wedges
Click to expand...

Heeeeeeyyy thats not fair :) I was not there to hijack anything. I merely asked why some people weren't going for the RCF 15s as I feel they have a greater sonic soundstage. For the money you would be hard pressed to find a better product. Either of them would be an excellent choice. However there is a choice between the two and we all don't all have to be sheep.
 
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I'm interested in the comparison between 12" and 15" for the following reason.
If you play through a single 12" or 4 12" speakers like in a 4x12" cab, you get a whole different sound.
With the 4x12, due to coupling you get more oomph, more bass.
I've read this is related to the increase in speaker size but only translates to the frequencies below a certain wavelength that's directly related to the distance of each speaker cone.
That's why you get a bigger bass response.
If the usage of multiple speakers translate into a bigger bass response, wouldn't this also work for a bigger speaker?
So a 15" would give you more thump and oomph and all that and get you closer to the sound of 4x12"?
 
MisterE said:
I'm interested in the comparison between 12" and 15" for the following reason.
If you play through a single 12" or 4 12" speakers like in a 4x12" cab, you get a whole different sound.
With the 4x12, due to coupling you get more oomph, more bass.
I've read this is related to the increase in speaker size but only translates to the frequencies below a certain wavelength that's directly related to the distance of each speaker cone.
That's why you get a bigger bass response.
If the usage of multiple speakers translate into a bigger bass response, wouldn't this also work for a bigger speaker?
So a 15" would give you more thump and oomph and all that and get you closer to the sound of 4x12"?
Click to expand...

Good question...

Where is a speaker expert when ya really need one :)

I'm not sure that any speaker array can create frequencies below what is being input? IOW, say the open E string of a six string guitar in std tuning is about 82.4hz. Would a 1-12" cabinet produce any frequencies below 82.4 or would a 4-12" cab?

I thought it was SPL at any particular frequency along with the lack of distortion at that same frequency that makes up what we perceive as bass?

Richard
 
Search (from this forum/the old forum/any other forum) for Jay Mitchell's comments about 15" speakers. Here's one

"I'll repeat: regardless of the quality or expense of the parts used, there is no way to make a well-behaved two way system with a 15" and a horn, unless you can execute the crossover below 900Hz. This low a crossover frequency requires a large HF horn - larger than you can fit into a small cabinet - and a very robust HF driver, and those devices will not function well at frequencies above 10kHz. "
 
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MisterE said:
I'm interested in the comparison between 12" and 15" for the following reason.
If you play through a single 12" or 4 12" speakers like in a 4x12" cab, you get a whole different sound.
With the 4x12, due to coupling you get more oomph, more bass.
I've read this is related to the increase in speaker size but only translates to the frequencies below a certain wavelength that's directly related to the distance of each speaker cone.
That's why you get a bigger bass response.
If the usage of multiple speakers translate into a bigger bass response, wouldn't this also work for a bigger speaker?
So a 15" would give you more thump and oomph and all that and get you closer to the sound of 4x12"?
Click to expand...

This was precisely my point with 15s. A pair felt more like a 4x12 with the air it pushed. I didn't feel like I was missing anything. That was my perception anyway.
 
I think the point some others are making is that yes, a 15" could move more air than a 12" (all things being equal), but a 15" won't be able to respond like a 12" due to its larger mass (being simplistic, slower reaction = less highs and possibly a hole in the mids due to the horn crossover). Also, keep in mind a 15 in a small cab (like most monitors) could actually have worse low end response than a 12 in a larger cab. And the design of the speaker itself (stiff or high excursion) can make a radical difference -- it's not just the diameter of the speaker itself.

As they say, it all depends on what you are looking to see/feel when playing. If it feels right to you -- it is right for you.

Btw, I didn't see in the other thread what type of music you play -- do you play tuned down or a 7/8 string?

TT
 
Tommy Tequila said:
I think the point some others are making is that yes, a 15" could move more air than a 12" (all things being equal), but a 15" won't be able to respond like a 12" due to its larger mass (being simplistic, slower reaction = less highs and possibly a hole in the mids due to the horn crossover). Also, keep in mind a 15 in a small cab (like most monitors) could actually have worse low end response than a 12 in a larger cab. And the design of the speaker itself (stiff or high excursion) can make a radical difference -- it's not just the diameter of the speaker itself.

As they say, it all depends on what you are looking to see/feel when playing. If it feels right to you -- it is right for you.


Btw, I didn't see in the other thread what type of music you play -- do you play tuned down or a 7/8 string?

TT
Click to expand...



You have made some very good points. I am suggesting that in a micro wedge format, the modern 12" neo dual concentrics do not seem to respond to small boxes as well as 15s. And yes a 12 in a bigger box could have a better low end as well as mid range response than a 15 in a small box. In a bigger box I believe 12s are preferable. However I feel that the 15s seem to work in a micro wedge design a bit better than the 12s. I do not play a 7 or 8 string. I do not tune down. I play anything from 50s to modern on Strats, teles, Les Pauls, Rickenbackers, Suhrs....... I usually cut everything below 100 hz. I am not focused on a "bass heavy" or "mid scooped" sound, which seems to be the assumption of several people just because I am suggesting 15s give a more full range sound in a small box. However there is certainly a time and a place for these sounds as well. I am simply interested in a small full range setup that captures the "oomph" or "air" or "overtones" of a traditional 2x12 or 4x12 cab. I think most of us on here are. And I feel the 15s in a micro wedge "load" a small box better than the 12s.
 
If you want harmonics or resonance that a guitar box produces IMO you won't get them with ANY FRFR. They are built (or should be built) with linearity in mind.
If you cut below 100Hz you won't benefit from 15"s either IMO.
But do what you please. ;-)
 
To each there own as they say :)

But I can't grasp the tech of a 15" wedge having more thump that a 12" wedge in the same size box if the input is rolled off at 100hz anyway?

My understanding is the 15" is going to have problems around 900-1200 hz in general though just due to the physics.

Richard
 
merlin17 said:
If you want harmonics or resonance that a guitar box produces IMO you won't get them with ANY FRFR. They are built (or should be built) with linearity in mind.
If you cut below 100Hz you won't benefit from 15"s either IMO.
But do what you please. ;-)
Click to expand...

But I do get a perceived resonance or "air"with the 15s. Possibly from the box itself but nonetheless it is there. This sound might be undesirable in a critical studio monitoring situation. But for onstage guitar it is pleasant to my ears, and makes things sound less "modelled" and in your face. And thank you. I will do what I please.
 
knoll said:
Search (from this forum/the old forum/any other forum) for Jay Mitchell's comments about 15" speakers. Here's one

"I'll repeat: regardless of the quality or expense of the parts used, there is no way to make a well-behaved two way system with a 15" and a horn, unless you can execute the crossover below 900Hz. This low a crossover frequency requires a large HF horn - larger than you can fit into a small cabinet - and a very robust HF driver, and those devices will not function well at frequencies above 10kHz. "
Click to expand...

I miss Jay...
 
three said:
I am suggesting that in a micro wedge format, the modern 12" neo dual concentrics do not seem to respond to small boxes as well as 15s.
Click to expand...

I think here is where you lost me.

Are you saying the same wedge cabinet dimensions with an input signal rolled off at say 80hz; the wedge with the 15" speaker will be producing lower frequencies than the 12" driver?

I see where two different wedges one 15" and one 12" are apples and oranges. And also that there are very ineffecient 12" speakers and very efficient 15's... but it comes back to apples and oranges to me... still lost here.

Richard
 
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