Your Best Methods for Double Tracking Guitars?

DJB-762x39

DJB-762x39

Member
Looking for guidance & clarity on what works best for double tracking rhythm guitar. Obviously it’s mostly subjective in the end, but I’m curious how it relates specifically when using AX3 as your interface and recording direct via USB...
I’ll break down my main questions below:

1: Do you seem to get better results when using the exact same settings between the Amp & Cab (IR) for both takes on the left & right track, or do you use different IR’s on each side, or leave the IR the same but altering the Amp/Drive slightly?

2: Do you seem to get better results using
1 single IR for each track, as opposed to a blend of two (or even 3) IR’s for each take? Also, what is considered to be the correct input mode for the Cab Block when tracking each left & right take? Is it necessary to change from left to right on the input mode based on which “side” your tracking?

3: Lastly, is there anything that would cause potential phase issues in the process of double tracking mono guitars? I always assumed phase issues were more associated with stereo tracks using real mics/cabs, but I have questioned this lately due to my tone sometimes sounding “anemic” with a noticeable loss of low end during playback, but sounding ok while monitoring thru the AX...

Please fill in any gaps with suggestions or known tried & true methods... thank y’all!
 
I recently had a mixing job where the customer had recorded double tracked guitars. Unfortunately, they changed about everything for the second track... different amp, different cab. Both tracks sounded completely different and it was very hard to keep the stereo image focused without butchering one of the tracks. So I guess you shouldn't go too far, but a little bit of variation is ok.
 
tla said:
I recently had a mixing job where the customer had recorded double tracked guitars. Unfortunately, they changed about everything for the second track... different amp, different cab. Both tracks sounded completely different and it was very hard to keep the stereo image focused without butchering one of the tracks. So I guess you shouldn't go too far, but a little bit of variation is ok.
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Ok that’s good feedback, thank you sir.
I would assume then, based on your experience, that changing IR’s between left & right tracks is almost out of the question since IR’s are probably the most influential part of the tone itself (IMO)... that would ruin any chance of a uniform stereo image. If anything maybe slightly tweaking the Amp settings between the 2 sides would be ok.
 
DJB-762x39 said:
I would assume then, based on your experience, that changing IR’s between left & right tracks is almost out of the question since IR’s are probably the most influential part of the tone itself (IMO)... that would ruin any chance of a uniform stereo image. If anything maybe slightly tweaking the Amp settings between the 2 sides would be ok.
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Changing IRs is fine. I was just describing an extreme case. One guitar was really dark, the other very bright. As long as you avoid that, you should be fine. The magic happens in the midrange.
 
tla said:
Changing IRs is fine. I was just describing an extreme case. One guitar was really dark, the other very bright. As long as you avoid that, you should be fine. The magic happens in the midrange.
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Ahh I see... so as long as it’s not night and day difference in the two tracks/sides we should be in good shape. So the inverse of this would be if there’s any down-side to tracking both sides with identical settings across the board, with only the very slight nuances in each performance being the main reason for the perceived wide stereo image.
 
Exactly. The wideness we experience is because of the differences between the two tracks, be it slight variations in pitch, timing (which come through your playing) and tone.
 
DJB-762x39 said:
1: Do you seem to get better results when using the exact same settings between the Amp & Cab (IR) for both takes on the left & right track, or do you use different IR’s on each side, or leave the IR the same but altering the Amp/Drive slightly?
Click to expand...
The results depend on the mix. Try it both ways and see which you prefer.

DJB-762x39 said:
2: Do you seem to get better results using
1 single IR for each track, as opposed to a blend of two (or even 3) IR’s for each take? Also, what is considered to be the correct input mode for the Cab Block when tracking each left & right take? Is it necessary to change from left to right on the input mode based on which “side” your tracking?
Click to expand...
There's no hard and fast rule here. A single IR may be just the ticket for one mix, and a blend might do the trick for another. The input mode (which defaults to left) is irrelevant for double-tracking because both tracks are always recorded separately.

DJB-762x39 said:
3: Lastly, is there anything that would cause potential phase issues in the process of double tracking mono guitars? I always assumed phase issues were more associated with stereo tracks using real mics/cabs, but I have questioned this lately due to my tone sometimes sounding “anemic” with a noticeable loss of low end during playback, but sounding ok while monitoring thru the AX...
Click to expand...
Phase can be an issue when miking a real cab with two mics if the sound doesn't hit the diaphragm of both mics at the same time. However, it shouldn't be an issue when recording tracks separately with the Axe-Fx. Now, you can have phase issues when using a blend of two IR's if the IR's aren't aligned, but that's easy enough to check in the Align tab of the Cab block.
 
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I find that, if you’re going to change something for the second track, keep the changes subtle. For example just change a drive pedal. If you change too much, the results tend to sound small or thin. If you want to use a very different tone to fill out the frequency range, do that on a third track.
 
Definitely interested to hear what people say about this.

If I'm not mistaken, wouldn't using the same guitar/pickup/amp/cab/settings still lead to more phase cancellation between the channels? (Not that this is always a bad thing in every scenario.) Even though there are playing variations from double tracking, using the same settings, etc. there is still more crossover (and potential phase) than when you use different settings. In other words, more difference between channels should give you a wider image.

That being said, I have a tendency to dial in two different tones using different amps and different cab IRs. One tends to be a slightly brighter sound and the other a slightly darker, but complimentary sound. Double track the parts using the same guitar/pickup and then pan them about 85% as my "hard panning".
 
I've had luck using variances while also keeping something static. For instance using a carol ann triptik with a real mid focused tone for both double tracks with a killer mid focused IR (core tone), then choosing a character amp for the L and R takes with scooped mids (recto and slo) using the same open and reduced mids IR. Blend in the character tracks in your DAW.

I think the biggest thing is to constantly tune your guitar and make sure your performance is tight and accurate.
 
My apologies if this gets long-

For years I used the same amp/guitar on each side. There’s nothing wrong with it and plenty of pros do it the same way. I’ve started to find that I get a wider image/more interesting sound if there’s some variation. Lately, I’ve been going for triple and quad tracking so I can mix a bunch of different amps in there. It can be daunting because you’ve got to be TIGHT or it’ll turn to mush, but the results are worth the effort.

I’ve done it a bunch of different ways now and each one has it’s benefit. I track DI’s with everything and then fire off a bunch of re-amps before I start mixing so I can switch between them to see what works the best. It’s a good idea to set up a bunch of utility presets, or having at least one scene in your presets that’s totally dry so you can do this quickly. Just basic amp blocks and 4 good cabs loaded up in the cab block so you can see which one sounds best for the song. It beats having to play the song over and over again!

What I generally end up with are 4 DI’s that are individual takes, from there I’ll blend whatever amps together in whatever combination is going to work best.

While I generally keep things in guitar land panned hard left/right, I’ve also gotten GREAT results what Bob Rock had Hetfield do on the Black Album, one left, one right and one down the middle. I’m mostly doing metal stuff, not super modern djent, but like 90’s Tool/Alice In Chains/Pantera, putting 2 mid-scooped amps down the sides and one midrange-y/bright amp down the middle has given some great tones.

I get such a kick out of this stuff and have blown hours just listening to different combinations. Last night I tracked guitars for a song, it’s the JPIIC+ Yellow Shred on each side, then a Friedman BE-100 with the drive dialed way back, it’s on like 3.5-4, really midrangey on the left and then a Herbie Ch 3 with a fair amount of mids on the right, the JPIIC’s are panned 100% L/R and the BE/Herbie are around 30% L/R.........All using different takes instead of re-amped.

Experiment and see what works best for the song. My buddy mixed a southern rock tune last week and one stereo guitar track sounded GREAT on it, I would have put 3 different amps on each side and over complicated it! :D
 
I would recommend finding two favorite cabinet sounds or IR combinations and then using those for each side.

For years, my process has always involved using the same amp tones for left and right but using a different cabinet sound. In my case, I've got different generations of Ownhammer Recto cabs over the years and just chose my favorite pre-mixed IR from two different releases. This gives me a wider stereo guitar sound compared to using the same IR on both sides.
 
In my experience, the widest sounds always come from a variation in the parts. For instance, one guitar playing an E5 with the open low E and the other guitar playing the E5 at the 7th position. You can get a pretty wide stereo space if the guitars are playing something unique. I usually use different cabs for either side. Some phase cancellation will yield different results. If you read up on the Haas effect, you may be able to glean some information from that. The trick is to introduce some phase that will make the track wider, but not so much that it totally destroys a mono mix.

A trick to try just to hear the results is, take a mono track, duplicate that track, flip the phase on the duplicate, hard pan each track, and listen in stereo. You should get the effect that you cannot really locate where the sound is coming from. These two mono tracks are 180 degrees out of phase so there is no coherency. If you now switch to mono, all of the sound disappears. Two mono sources panned at 180 degrees will null in mono. It is an interesting experiment. In this case you are taking things to the extreme and is a technique used on albums for less important parts that really show up when you listen with headphones on. This should never be used for rhythm guitar tracks, but it may prove useful for something. It can also show how phase can create space and width in a track.
 
Everything has to fit into the sonic space of the mix.
If you are able to, have a listen to some isolated guitar tracks and then see how they sit in the full mix. The results are a bit surprising sometimes.
 
@DJB-762x39 I used to do quad tracks and up the middle with small changes for each, mic changes, filtering.
Now I do one guitar, sometimes with stereo IRs, or with a stereo effect or reverb and double in strategic parts of the song. I think it sounds bigger most of the time (less phase nonsense) and I don't need to spend as much time editing & drawing volume envelopes or automating fader rides depending how I work.
A lot of heavy guitar music sounds kinda congested to me these days and I find it boring when bands play the same thing in both sides. It's not like I would refuse to do 12 tracks per side for the right money though :D
 
One thing I like to do is have the same settings, but I might play with the highs - one will use treble to adjust the highs with the presence flat, and then vice versa - makes a difference, and they blend and separate well at the same time.
 
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