x/y vs. scenes vs. presets

The_Kid

The_Kid

Experienced
I'm sure this has been asked a bunch, but my learning style just needs things worded in my own thinking/vocabulary for it to click...sorry...

Moving from the ultra to the II's firmware ideas...am I correct in this thought process Banks > Presets > Scenes > X/Y as the order of 'nesting' settings. Every Bank has Presets, every Preset contains Scenes, and every Scene allows X/Y settings. Am I still on track?

If so...coming from the ultra, I setup a preset for every sound I need. I play in a cover band, so for example with the songs Crazy Train, Enter Sandman and Wanted Dead or Alive...I would have the following: Crazy Train Rhythm, Crazy Train Lead, Enter Sandman Clean, Enter Sandman Rhythm, Enter Sandman Lead, WDOA Clean, WDOA Gritty, WDOA Rhythm and WDOA Lead. 9 presets for those 3 songs. None of my songs use more than 4 presets.

I understand how X/Y works mostly...and I get scenes being 'mini-presets' within presets......for my approach to my sounds be best done with scenes. So in my above scenario I would have a Crazy Train Preset, Enter Sandman Preset and a WDOA preset. The Clean/Gritty/Rhythm/Lead sounds would all be changed using Scenes 1-4 within the 'song title' preset name? If that is correct, I would have to basically create the most complex grid/routing that the song would require, and bypass the appropriate blocks on the scenes they would not be used on (etc delay, filter/lead boost, drive pedal) and for any blocks that are being used across multiple scenes they would take advantage of the X/Y settings (maybe my gritty is a TS808 into a Fender Clean, but my rhythm has a different drive into a jcm800. Drive/Amp would use XY in that scenario)....am I doing ok here?
 
So just to simplify, based on the information that my Ultra/LF+ rig never used more than 4 presets, I shouldnt ever use more than 4 scenes.

When I create a preset, I would add every block needed for the song to the Scene 1 slot, copy/paste to Scene 2/3/4 etc, and modify the bypass and X/Y settings for changes that need to be made from the original Scene 1 bypass/settings.

One other question, which I may run into a snag here....Presets can be named, but I think I remember that scenes cannot. This is the point I would begin the need to create a new approach to implementing the presets/scenes into the live show in a way that makes sense.

Either all Scenes use the same structure of sound (ect Scene 1 is always the starting sound, Scene 2 is always lead, Scene 3 is always the random bridge extra sound...) or I use all 8 scenes to somehow create a song 'flow' where Scene 1 is the intro/verse 1, scene 2 is chorus 1, scene 3 is verse 2, scene 4 is chorus 2, scene 5 is solo, scene 6 is chorus 3, scene 7 is outro. This seems way less efficient...but with not being able to label scenes, I would just jump to the next scene when there is a change.

Any ideas for this part...
 
I'M NEW but I would think you would have one preset called CRAZY TRAIN then inside it have scene based changes to get the other sounds and also XY changes to do some items But I still dont see the benefit of XY toggle if I can use scenes. Because i heard scene changes are faster than preset changes mostly
 
From my understanding the Scenes have to use the same layout/preset routing. The X/Y changes allow you to change a blocks settings within a scene. My understanding would be (blocks are just roughly named)
Preset - Wanted Dead Or Alive
Scene 1 (Intro) - Fender Twin Clean(X) w/Chorus (X) and Delay (X)
Scene 2 (Verse 1/Chorus 1) - Fender Twin Clean(X) w/Chorus (X) delay is bypassed
Scene 3 (Verse 2/Chorus2) - TS808 (X) Fender Twin Clean (X) w/Chorus (X) delay is bypassed
Scene 4 (Solo) - TS808 (Y) Marshall Plexi (Y) chorus bypassed and Delay (Y)
Scene 5 (Verse 3 Rhythm) Marshall Plexi (Y) chorus/delay both bypassed

So the preset would basically be setup as:

Drive - Amp - Cab - Chorus - Filter/Delay (parallel) - Output

The Drive/amp/delay would have 2 settings within the preset, but each scene can have either one of two settings for the blocks.
 
Hey Chris, I'll check that out. I follow your input on several threads even though I only have a gen 1 unit still so I know you know your schtuff. I feel like i've got a grasp of the tools, but there is a gap in how to use them to help me build my house of tones that I've got with my current rig and apply it to the live setup. Thanks for the link.
 
Because you can only use 2 different amps in a given bank for all your scenes, even with XY settings for the 2 amps this is way too limiting for me so I just stay in pre set mode and have way more changes in amps and effects for each given pre set in a bank and it keeps the CPU use down. Neither scenes or pre sets allow for seamless switching. Hopefully this changes soon!
 
The_Kid said:
From my understanding the Scenes have to use the same layout/preset routing. The X/Y changes allow you to change a blocks settings within a scene. My understanding would be (blocks are just roughly named)
Preset - Wanted Dead Or Alive
Scene 1 (Intro) - Fender Twin Clean(X) w/Chorus (X) and Delay (X)
Scene 2 (Verse 1/Chorus 1) - Fender Twin Clean(X) w/Chorus (X) delay is bypassed
Scene 3 (Verse 2/Chorus2) - TS808 (X) Fender Twin Clean (X) w/Chorus (X) delay is bypassed
Scene 4 (Solo) - TS808 (Y) Marshall Plexi (Y) chorus bypassed and Delay (Y)
Scene 5 (Verse 3 Rhythm) Marshall Plexi (Y) chorus/delay both bypassed

So the preset would basically be setup as:

Drive - Amp - Cab - Chorus - Filter/Delay (parallel) - Output

The Drive/amp/delay would have 2 settings within the preset, but each scene can have either one of two settings for the blocks.
Click to expand...

You've pretty much got it, though you might want to ran a CAB X/Y switch between the Twin and Plexi as well. The easiest way to think of scenes is multiple assignments attached to a single footswitch (not unlike assigning multi CC's to a switch in programming a MIDI pedal, but simplified). In the editor, it's very easy to implement, you simply click on the scene you want to define and then set the state of the different blocks and then save. There's some additional flexibility as well in that you can assign a Scene 1/2 toggle to a footswitch.
 
Cragginshred - I hear ya...I'm coming from the ULtra/LF+12+ where I have 140+ presets setup, covering the clean/rhythm/lead sounds I need for the 90+ tunes we can pull off. With the LF+ I can draw in my presets, arrange them into songs, and then arrange the songs into setlists. So when we play, i pull up setlist 1, first song is Enter Sandman - the controller populates with only the clean/rhy/lead patch I designed for that song. Would love to see that style implementation with the preset management...but I've worked around it before.

I'm thinking preset management options for full preset selection:
preset per sound needed and organize into setlist order
preset per song manage scenes to jump between song sounds needed (X/Y) settings


The one thing I dont think I saw in the manual...which I'm assuming we can do. Can we jump from Scene 1 > Scene 6 >Scene 3 ....or do you have to work 1,2,3,4 etc.
 
The_Kid said:
Cragginshred - I hear ya...I'm coming from the ULtra/LF+12+ where I have 140+ presets setup, covering the clean/rhythm/lead sounds I need for the 90+ tunes we can pull off. With the LF+ I can draw in my presets, arrange them into songs, and then arrange the songs into setlists. So when we play, i pull up setlist 1, first song is Enter Sandman - the controller populates with only the clean/rhy/lead patch I designed for that song. Would love to see that style implementation with the preset management...but I've worked around it before.

I'm thinking preset management options for full preset selection:
preset per sound needed and organize into setlist order
preset per song manage scenes to jump between song sounds needed (X/Y) settings


The one thing I dont think I saw in the manual...which I'm assuming we can do. Can we jump from Scene 1 > Scene 6 >Scene 3 ....or do you have to work 1,2,3,4 etc.
Click to expand...

Each scene is assigned a footswitch, so you can trigger them in any sequence you like. I don't think you can toggle through them with a single switch.
 
I do the one song per preset route - My most complicated preset has five scenes, and I order them chronologically.
Scene 1 intro and verse (clean)
Scene 2 Bridge (Saturated drive)
Scene 3 Chorus, (edge of break-up)
Scene 5 Solo (Liquid lead)

It takes a little getting used to, but once you get it, it is quite easy to set up.

I usually just start my presets by building scene 1, then add scene 2 and so forth. I rarely get into a situation, where I have to redo stuff.

It's true that not all scene changes are seamless, but if you want to, you can get extremely far with seamless switching. You basically need to stay with the same amp all the time, but then you can add filters, drive blocks and what-not to alter the tone of the amp block. In the example above, I use the CAE+ Rhythm for scenes 1-4 and CAE+ Lead for Scene 5. Switching between scenes 1-4 is seamless.
 
I use about 11 presets with 5 scenes in each of them in our set but use the same amp/ cab for all of them. Only the fx chains vary in them. In all of them Scene1 is my rhythm, Scene 2 a louder rhythm or lead, Scene 3 my clean, Scene 4 a wetter lead and Scene 5 an even wetter lead. I use Scene Modifiers to control the amp gain so I can go from clean to dirty with no audio gap. Such an amazing and flexible unit.
 
The_Kid said:
If that is correct, I would have to basically create the most complex grid/routing that the song would require, and bypass the appropriate blocks on the scenes they would not be used on (etc delay, filter/lead boost, drive pedal) and for any blocks that are being used across multiple scenes they would take advantage of the X/Y settings (maybe my gritty is a TS808 into a Fender Clean, but my rhythm has a different drive into a jcm800. Drive/Amp would use XY in that scenario)....am I doing ok here?
Click to expand...

This is precisely how I leverage presets right down to Song Title for the Preset name. You are on it and this makes this device (AX8 & AFX II) that much more powerful. Nailed it dude. If I get time later I can upload a "Simple Man" preset I made with the 4 scenes as S1: Intro | S2: Grit/Post-Verse | S3: Chorus Drive | S4: Solo/Pitch/Boost for AX8. If you refine your preset building techniques around this method, you will be incredibly proficient at whipping out any tune you or others desire on demand.

Great post!
 
I'm pretty proficient with preset creation. Hell I used to create one preset per song, and use my exp pedals to trigger the changes of multiple routings on the grid....so I'm pretty covered that way. Just trying to make the live controlling of the sounds I need the most efficient. The easiest would be a sound per preset and ignore the scene/xy thing...but if the functionality is there, I might as well try and use it in an efficient manner. Being that I should not need more than 4 sounds for a song...I should be able to use scenes to create 4 sounds within a preset and use the XY settings to help vary between amps/cabs/effects.
 
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