would like more clean amps for jazz POLYTONE

want amp models for jazz? (Polytone/ Henriksen/ Clarus)


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I am not a jazz player, but I tend to play quite a bit of jzzy type rock and blues. I would love more clean tones.
 
Absolutely!
Polytone as a classic and Henriksen as modern classic are missing!
Please!
I know there are a lot of people who want to see them in the Axe-Fx!
 
I'm not really asking for these and I have no idea how far off the Axe is atm (if at all, I've read some opinions here), but I *will* say that my best friend used to have a Polytone and to this day I remember it as *the* combo I would want if I only played jazz. I haven't heard that much in person to compare with though. I just know it was a huge difference to me versus hearing another friend playing jazz through his Roland Cubes.
 
You might try using the studio pre model and changing the tone stack and bright cap values in the advanced param's (with and without the power amp sim), or perhaps the jazz model with various tone stack and bright cap values?
 
If you want a ss preamp sound for jazz then don't use any Amp Block at all.
Run your signal into a GEQ or a PEQ (and a Cab block if you're running FRFR) and it'll sound every bit as good as or better than any Polytone or a Clarus or sim can sound.

IMO The USA Clean sim is the best Amp sim for jazz in the Axe.
Much warmer and more musical than any Polytone or any other ss amp you're likely to try.
If you haven't tried the USA Clean sim for jazz, then you should.
Turn of the Bright switch.
Keep the Gain and Master at or below 12:00.
If it's still too bright for you then lower the Treble or the Presence.
Taper the Bass to suit your style.

Polytones are not really high quality amps.
People use them mostly because they are loud enough for most gigs, and get a decent dark jazz sound and are light weight and easy to take on public transit to small jazz gigs.
The Axe with USA Clean sim kills the Polytone IMO.
It kills the Clarus and the Henriksen too.
Also kills the Mesa MKIV that it's modelled after for that matter.
 
Well that's a matter of taste i guess but it would be nice to have some food for jazzers too.

i owned Polytone, Henriksen and Clarus and i can say that these are the amps that really shines for jazz. Rock amps , no matter how good they are for rock, usually doesn't work well for jazz.

Polytone has a very characteristic sound, you can say its not a high end amp but most jazz guys like it, so it would be fair to have a model for them.
Same with Henriksen Jazzamp which is even better for my ears.
 
Well, I'm a jazz guy too, and the Axe is already capable of wiping the asses of the Polytone the Clarus and the Henriksen with its present capabilities.
I too would welcome a PT amp sim, but it's not really needed.

Have you tried the other ways to accomplish a jazz tone that I talked about earlier yet?

It'd be cool if someone who knows what they're doing created some cabinet IRs of PT's or Raezer Edge's cabinets.
But most of the folks who are involved with making IRs are not interested in those types of cabs.
But that's only important if you're going FRFR.
And the stock cab sims can probably do fine that too.
The 2 X 12 Blackface cab sim is pretty good for jazz.
Of the stock cab sims I find the 2 X 12 Black to be the most versatile for clean and mid-gain tones.
 
i will check your suggestions Joegold, My ultra in on the way to me, so i don't have it yet, but i know i will be using it for jazz and i really hate to play my D'angelico guitar through rock amps, so i'm a bit nervous.
 
pauliusmm said:
i will check your suggestions Joegold, My ultra in on the way to me, so i don't have it yet, but i know i will be using it for jazz and i really hate to play my D'angelico guitar through rock amps, so i'm a bit nervous.

Start with the USA Clean amp sim, with Bright switch Off.
If you like a real dark sound, like the PT set to Dark, then try lowering the Presence parameter.
If you're going FRFR then start with the 1 X 12 Black cab sim.

If you're comfortable tweaking then you're gonna love the Axe.
If you're a typical plug-n-play anti-technology old-school-jazz-guitar guy then you'll probably require a paradigm shift to get into the Axe.

Good luck.
 
While the Polytone and the Henriksen may have tonal qualities you enjoy, the AI Clarus is intended to be completely transparent (and succeeds in that venture), which makes adding it to the Axe completely pointless. Either use the Tube Pre or no amp model at all to simulate the Clarus.
 
You may be right about clarus,
but i guess we should think about cab sims as well, as they produce some difference,
How about Raezer's Edge cabinet sims/ Henriksen cabinets?
 
The Clarus has a fairly "neutral" Class D power amp coupled with a fairly "neutral" preamp.
But when I owned a Clarus 2R I tried it with other preamps too, and its power amp did not reproduce top end in a very neutral manner at all.

Plus, the Clarus is typically paired with one of the Raezor's Edge cabinets.
RE also claims "neutrality" for its speaker designs but they are anything but neutral.
The closest thing they make to a neutral sounding cabinet are their ER (Extended Range) cabs with the tweeter. And I seriously doubt that these cabs can compare to truly neutral well-designed FRFR cabinet.

When you see great jazz players endorsing these products as having an "un-coloured" or "neutral" tone all they're really saying is that for the types of music that they are involved in they happen to like the way that this equipment happens to colour their tone as opposed to the way that other equipment they are familiar with happens to colour their tone.

A truly neutral sounding amp would sound just like a good PA or just like plugging directly into the board in a good studio.
For an acoustic bass player or guitar playing using mic's instead of piezo or magnetic pickups this would be desirable.
But in a live situation it would feedback too early to be useful.

Anybody using magnetic or piezo pickups needs an amplification system that *does* colour the sound.
 
Polytones are not known for their bright Charlie Christian-esque/Grant Green-esque tone.
Those guys used tube amps.

Besides sufficient power in a small portable box Polytones are known for the their 3-position Treble/Bright/Cut switch.

As I recall the middle position is Normal.
Upper position is Bright.
And lower position, the one that most jazz guys use on the PT because the other two positions have a harshness to the top end, is Dark.
If you've ever tried to play pop or R&B rhythm guitar styles through a Polytone you'll know what I mean about the quality of its top-end.
It sucks.

Joe Pass used a Polytone for several years and was getting a quite dark tone at the time.
Most guys like them because it's easy to cop a Jim Hall-type tone from them.
If there's any player in jazz who influenced the dark-dry jazz guitar tone it's Jim Hall. (He used tube amps most of the time, but was using a Walter Woods ss amp in the 70s and 80s and he may have dabbled with PT's as well.)
I always thought of that dark jazz guitar tone (which I am *very* fond of myself although I can sympathize with folks who don't like it) as being part of that whole 'cool' school of jazz where flamboyance was shunned for the sake of content expression and understatement.
Singers and horn players were using little or no vibrato.
Big bands were paired down into small ensembles.
Understatement was a desired characteristic of the music.

Pat Metheny and Mick Goodrick were both using Acoustic 134 ss amp models just before the PT's came out in the late 70s.
They had similar design goals to the PTs but were in a larger enclosure (4 X 10 open back combo shell) and weren't as portable.
Metheny kept using the guts of the 134 for as long as he could before it disintegrated.
I think Pat liked the 135 because it reminded him of his old Standel, a ss amp that Wes used to play as well.

The fact is though that the tones they liked to play with are just as easy to get through tube amps, but only at lower volumes.
The main reasons not to use a tube amp for this type of music, especially when it starts getting louder, is headroom.
Only tube amps with 4 6L6s (or similarly powerful power sections) can hope to stay clean enough at louder volumes when playing through them with a dark sound, and those amps tend to be quite a bit heavier than a ss amp with similar or better wattage/headroom characteristics.
Most jazz guys don't want to lug around heavy amps.

In the Axe, these considerations are irrelevant.
Most of the amp sims of clean tube amps can get as loud as you'll ever need, assuming that you're monitoring the Axe with something that has 100 watts or more of clean power available.
(Although for some reason the USA Clean sim seems to be capable of significantly greater relative levels of 100% clean tone before it clips the Axe's digital output leds compared to the other clean amp sims.)

So I tend to gravitate to the USA Clean sim or the Double Verb sim for my jazz tones in the Axe.
But a real Twin (and even the Mesa MKIV) would have a hard time staying clean at the levels that I often play at with loud drummers.

And if I was trying to peg the sound of a Polytone, for some reason, I wouldn't use an Amp Block at all.
I'd use a PEQ and I'd use its Level parameter just like the Level Parameter of an amp block.
 
If you really want to cop the essence of the feel of playing through a Polytone Mini
Brute the most important thing is to model the cabinet.

It's a closed-back un-ported cab with the smallest possible dimensions that will allow for a 12" generic Eminence driver and the minimalist electronics.
The MB's preamp hangs from the top of the cab (somewhat like a Fender combo amp hangs from the top of its chassis).
The power amp module sits on the bottom of the cab.
Each of the electronics modules almost touches the speaker. The driver's magnet is almost touching the back board of the cab.
This allows the cab's dimensions to be as small as possible.
Stuff any empty space with acoustic insulation to dull it down, and you're done.

I don't know how to find out which Eminence driver PT used in the past or what they're using now. But they're still in business so I guess you could ask them if you want.

I you know someone who owns a Mini Brute and you've got the engineering chops to take some IRs of its cab, then you'll have to disconnect the speaker from the power amp because there's no Speaker In jack, as I recall.
[They do have an external speaker out jack, but that's another story.]

If you want to use the PTs power amp as part of the IR recording process then you could probably do that too. [But I wouldn't.]
The preamp is connected to the power amp module with RCA cables/jacks.

Once you get those IRs you'll have all that glorious boxy honky sound all to yourself.
 
I'm not sure if you can access this video unless you're logged into Facebook but my guitar solo, the end of which can be heard around 2:03, was recorded with the Axe through an SLA1 into a 1 X 12" open back cab with EVM-12L.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=192952350378

I think it's the USA Clean sim but it might be the old Blackface (now called Double Verb) sim.
Not sure what mic the engineers used but it was probably just a 57 off-axis on the cap at the grille.

I'm using a Tele with a humbucker in the neck position and a 24.75" scale neck.
It's got flat wound .012-.052 strings on it.
The tone isn't perfect but it's real close to exactly what I'm trying to achieve, i.e. somewhere between Ed Bickert and Pat Metheny.
I can get that tone at *any* volume.

The CD should be out in September and then you can hear the whole solo if you want to buy it.

Also some more audio here:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/John-Macleods-Rex-Hotel-Orchestra/178927349637?ref=ts
 
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